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Subject: The Dol guldur is a waste of my time as a solo scenario - Beware rss

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Bill Robot
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This is a rant. It came to me during my numerous losses to Dol Guldur. I play Dol guldur because the other two quests are fairly easy.

I really like this game. I bought two copies after a played my friends. I like the art, the deck building, the rules are good for FFG and the theme is mostly right on (although the lack of corruption as a major mechanic is a huge oversight but that is a subject of another rant). Nevertheless I have to two major gripes.

1. The game is massively draw dependent.
2. There is no recovery from losing a character.

In detail:

1.When I play Dol guldur I keep drawing my start encounters until I get one that I think I have a chance to beat. For a card like Caught in a web or Ungoliants Spawn I simply reshuffle the encounter deck. Furthermore even if neither of those two cards show up in the first draw but do show up on turn 2-3 you're pretty much dead. I don't think the hero deck is draw dependent because you can mulligan and because card frequency is higher. The encounter deck is, however, awful.
Same goes for combat shadow effects. One bad early draw and the game can be over (think Dol Guldur Orcs against and undefended Aragorn within the first few turns). Unfortunately the game requires you to take risky undefended attacks often. Now don't get me wrong I don't mind dealing with dice but there is very little in the way of risk mitigation in this game. Many risks have game ending consequences and yet are required in order to win (like traveling with Eowyn when she is at 1 health). This brings me to my Second point...

2. No recovery mechanism. You are forced to take risks with huge consequences and when they go wrong the game is simply over. I mean when you lose a hero the game is over about 98% of the time. I would like the opportunity to fight out a bad situation but it is impossible.

So overall I am much less happy then I was with this game. Having the reshuffle the encounter deck to play stinks of a poorly development. Having situations that you simply cannot play your way out of - be the norm - is poor development. I was hoping for a strategic/tactic puzzle what I feel I got was a crap shoot. Pity.
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Cracky McCracken
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Chris Corbin
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I think it is unfair to say that there is "no recovery mechanism" since the Spirit deck has the Fortune or Fate card, and there are numerous cards in the Lore deck that heal characters.
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snailien
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I very much understand your concern.

I dislike the Dol Guldur scenario. I don't enjoy the random game-changing limits that are imposed on you. The "rescue the hero" concept is interesting, but it is the opposite of fun since it completely changes the game for the worse. "Not only do you get 1 less hero to gather resources and take actions, but what the hell, why don't we disallow you to play more than 1 ally, too? You know, just because."

I can't wait for this scenario to show up:
Your heroes do not collect resources during the resource phase.
Resource Action: Exhaust a hero you control to add 2 resources to that hero's resource pool.
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Allan Clements
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That is one of the reasons I like spirit/lore decks, both have ways to mitigate the randomness of the encounter deck. Lore can look ahead to see what cards are coming and spirit can cancel those effects once they occur.

Tactics and Leadership decks pretty much just have to go with the flow and try to cover all bases, yes sometimes you will get screwed over but I am sure we will get more cards in the future to react better to those game over moments.

I assume you are playing solo btw, which is very tough compared to multiplayer btw. The base quests don't scale well with number of players, I think they are best with 2 players but I have fun trying to beat them with just 1 set of heroes anyway.
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Malex Berg
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Kamakaze wrote:
That is one of the reasons I like spirit/lore decks, both have ways to mitigate the randomness of the encounter deck. Lore can look ahead to see what cards are coming and spirit can cancel those effects once they occur.

Tactics and Leadership decks pretty much just have to go with the flow and try to cover all bases, yes sometimes you will get screwed over but I am sure we will get more cards in the future to react better to those game over moments.

I assume you are playing solo btw, which is very tough compared to multiplayer btw. The base quests don't scale well with number of players, I think they are best with 2 players but I have fun trying to beat them with just 1 set of heroes anyway.


+1
 
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Joel Miller
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I do believe scaling is one of the most common complaints about this game. Those of us who enjoy solo play have adapted house rules -or- played as if we were two people (i.e. two sets of heroes / decks / threat trackers) in order to get entertainment from this scenario.

It took me several attempts to beat this scenario even with two players and it was very rewarding once I did.

Have fun!
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Tristan Hall
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Blorbo wrote:
Having situations that you simply cannot play your way out of - be the norm - is poor development.


I agree 100% and am quite astonished that this quest was included in the core set. It actually plays well with more than one player but as a solo scenario it is as you say, a total waste of time for anyone who bought the game believing it will be playable completely solo.

However - FWIW, playing solo with two decks is also enjoyable and probably the only way you will get any playability out of the Dol Guldur scenario.
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Oleg volobujev
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As Ninjadorg say third quest not manage to play solo. This for 2 and more players. But this quest is to easy anyway after 1 2 game you will know how to win all the time.

The HFG quest scaling better more players you have more danger you meet. In solo game is also more dangerous. 1 or 2 mistakes and your threat is 50 qickly!!!
But still in my opinion not enough challenge!!!

Losing 1 hero is not mean you lose the game. Many games i won with 2 even 1 hero left.Depend on certain decks also.

For me to stay with the game and be happy need to put difficult level up a lot. HFG is going to right direction. I hope the next quest difficiult will be not less than 6. Than you have a point to use your 50 cards decks (3 copies of each card). Now you win to easy even solo. In coop is peace of cake. We play 3 players with 50 cards expert decks against HFG and win so easy. Even we reveal 4 cards instead 3(3 players game).
 
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Bill Robot
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I'll try playing two decks.
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jakub praibis
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The problem is not the scenario itself, the problem is the scaling, I'd say. It is a fun scenario in a 2 player game. It is nigh impossible solo. The problem is the scaling and I don't see why you have to deal with all three encounter cards in solo play. The Anduin scenario scales this MUCH better. If you got one encounter card for solo play to start with, it could be fun.
 
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Tristan Hall
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jpraibis wrote:
The Anduin scenario scales this MUCH better.


I'm not sure I'm convinced about that either. One Hill Troll to start with no matter how many players is just not good scaling. And again in stage B: "Reveal 1 additional card from the encounter deck each quest phase" does not scale well at all.

I still really like the game, but the design of all the scenarios so far is clearly meant specifically for two players. Although HfG does seem to start to address this...
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Allan Clements
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The hill troll + another card is just too much, it should at least have been "the first player searches the encounter deck for a Hill troll and places it in the staging area, then each other player reveals one card from the encounter deck"

That at least means as a solo player you only start with a hill troll in play.

Dol Goldur is a whole other mess, 3 starting objectives and losing 1 hero is just not sensible for a solo game (and is massively easier in a 4 player game)

It should have probably added the objectives one per player per stage of the quest (since you don't need them all until the end) and means all of them are in play straight away for a 3/4 player and 1 is in play for a solo player.

I don't know how to fix the solo player losing a hero though
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Jonathan Ramundi
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No need to reshuffle when Caught in a Web comes up anymore. According to the FAQ, if the setup instructions don't use the word "reveal" (in this cards, the cards are "added" to the Objectives), it's When Revealed effects don't activate.

I assume the same is true of Surge and Doomed during setup in those cases, since the rulebook states them as a form of When Revealed effects, but, if that was the case then thinks like A Test of Will and Eleanor's ability would work on them, and I'm sure they don't.

Moar answers are needed! Moar!
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Mike Niederer
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I totally agree with this point: putting limits like just playing 1 ally per turn feels very artificial.

I'm fine with the hero being captured, as that's what the scenario is built around, though I even question the reason why it's random...in a deck building game, to randomly eliminate 1/3rd of your resource generation for 1/3rd of the game is just odd.





snailien wrote:
I very much understand your concern.

I dislike the Dol Guldur scenario. I don't enjoy the random game-changing limits that are imposed on you. The "rescue the hero" concept is interesting, but it is the opposite of fun since it completely changes the game for the worse. "Not only do you get 1 less hero to gather resources and take actions, but what the hell, why don't we disallow you to play more than 1 ally, too? You know, just because."

I can't wait for this scenario to show up:
Your heroes do not collect resources during the resource phase.
Resource Action: Exhaust a hero you control to add 2 resources to that hero's resource pool.
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Jonathan Ramundi
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doxbane wrote:
I totally agree with this point: putting limits like just playing 1 ally per turn feels very artificial.

I'm fine with the hero being captured, as that's what the scenario is built around, though I even question the reason why it's random...in a deck building game, to randomly eliminate 1/3rd of your resource generation for 1/3rd of the game is just odd.





snailien wrote:
I very much understand your concern.

I dislike the Dol Guldur scenario. I don't enjoy the random game-changing limits that are imposed on you. The "rescue the hero" concept is interesting, but it is the opposite of fun since it completely changes the game for the worse. "Not only do you get 1 less hero to gather resources and take actions, but what the hell, why don't we disallow you to play more than 1 ally, too? You know, just because."

I can't wait for this scenario to show up:
Your heroes do not collect resources during the resource phase.
Resource Action: Exhaust a hero you control to add 2 resources to that hero's resource pool.
I'll probably give the scenario a good 10 attempts solo with several different decks (going back every so often with deck tweaked with Adventure Pack cards) before stopping.

The first two are still quite fun for me, but I have beaten them dozens of times with different decks, getting record low scores, so I want something new for now.
 
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Jotora wrote:
No need to reshuffle when Caught in a Web comes up anymore. According to the FAQ, if the setup instructions don't use the word "reveal" (in this cards, the cards are "added" to the Objectives), it's When Revealed effects don't activate.

I assume the same is true of Surge and Doomed during setup in those cases, since the rulebook states them as a form of When Revealed effects, but, if that was the case then thinks like A Test of Will and Eleanor's ability would work on them, and I'm sure they don't.

Moar answers are needed! Moar!


You wrong!!! Nothing to do with with reveral and add effect. Is only with
PUT INTO PLAY. When put into play yes there is no revealed Effect. But it mostly work on the enemies. So Caught in the web work in setup.
 
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Oleg volobujev
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Hey guys for me all this scenario is quite easy (Hunt for gollum more hard but still easy). Third quest is IMPOSSIBLE to play solo. For 2 players is peace of cake.
But if you play with mono decks than yes is hard. Actually for now only play mono decks provide interesting playing.

An almost all the quest have same problem : they hard in begining and very easy in the end. I really like the game but......... We need more interesting more hard more flexible quests. When you even when you have all your heroes full of attachments and allies support meet the challenge which can destroy you team even in the last staging of quests.
 
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Jonathan Ramundi
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Glaurung2 wrote:
Jotora wrote:
No need to reshuffle when Caught in a Web comes up anymore. According to the FAQ, if the setup instructions don't use the word "reveal" (in this cards, the cards are "added" to the Objectives), it's When Revealed effects don't activate.

I assume the same is true of Surge and Doomed during setup in those cases, since the rulebook states them as a form of When Revealed effects, but, if that was the case then thinks like A Test of Will and Eleanor's ability would work on them, and I'm sure they don't.

Moar answers are needed! Moar!


You wrong!!! Nothing to do with with reveral and add effect. Is only with
PUT INTO PLAY. When put into play yes there is no revealed Effect. But it mostly work on the enemies. So Caught in the web work in setup.

Official FAQ wrote:
(1.22) "When Revealed" Effects
A card is only considered to be revealed if the card or
game effect causing the card to enter play specifically
uses a form of the word "reveal".


The Necromancer's Tower wrote:
Setup: Search the encounter deck for the 3 objective cards, and place them in the staging area. Also, place the Nazgul of Dol Guldur face up but out of play, alongside the quest deck. Then, shuffle the encounter deck, and attach 1 encounter to each objective card.


I don't see a form of the word "reveal" anywhere in there.
 
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Tom DeFrank
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Blorbo wrote:


2. There is no recovery from losing a character.



This is why Brok Ironfist is so underrated and underused.
 
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Michail Giannis
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Quote:
I don't see a form of the word "reveal" anywhere in there.


Whenever you draw a card from the encounter deck is called REVEALING a card from the encounter deck. So they don't have to keep repeating that you reveal a card from a deck.

P.S. And if you are thinking "then when a card is NOT revealed" thing it as "when they say to search the encounter deck and put into play a card" THIS is not reavealing.
Example: Search the encounter deck for an orc card and put it into the staging area......if this card has a "when revealed..." effect it doen't take effect.
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jakub praibis
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ninjadorg wrote:
jpraibis wrote:
The Anduin scenario scales this MUCH better.


I'm not sure I'm convinced about that either. One Hill Troll to start with no matter how many players is just not good scaling. And again in stage B: "Reveal 1 additional card from the encounter deck each quest phase" does not scale well at all.

I still really like the game, but the design of all the scenarios so far is clearly meant specifically for two players. Although HfG does seem to start to address this...


Well, I beat the scenario solo at least as likely as in a coop. That was my reasoning behind it. But it is dependent on the deck. When I play it solo, I use the Spirit-Tactics with Dunhere, Eowyn and Legolas, it is very useful against it. On the other hand, it still has almost no chance against Dol Guldur, whilst we usually beat it comfortably in a coop. That is my experience with the scaling issue.
 
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jakub praibis
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MountainRoot wrote:
Quote:
I don't see a form of the word "reveal" anywhere in there.


Whenever you draw a card from the encounter deck is called REVEALING a card from the encounter deck. So they don't have to keep repeating that you reveal a card from a deck.

P.S. And if you are thinking "then when a card is NOT revealed" thing it as "when they say to search the encounter deck and put into play a card" THIS is not reavealing.
Example: Search the encounter deck for an orc card and put it into the staging area......if this card has a "when revealed..." effect it doen't take effect.


You may be right but your reasoning has very little ground (if any). Where do you actually see the set up is drawing? FAQ is quite simple about it, no "reveal" means no "when revealed". They even give example from the set up.
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Mr. D
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Jotora is correct. The newest FAQ makes it very clear:

Quote:
(1.22) "When Revealed" Effects
A card is only considered to be revealed if the card or
game effect causing the card to enter play specifically
uses a form of the word "reveal".


The setup for Dol Guldur says:
Quote:
attach 1 encounter to each objective card



The setup card does not "specifically use a form of the word 'reveal'", so the cards you attach to the objective cards are not "considered to be revealed." Thus, "When Revealed" effects of the cards guarding the objectives are NOT triggered.

EDIT: Also, Surge and Doomed only trigger during the Staging Step of the Quest Phase (per the rulebook), so they do not trigger during Setup either.

Edited because I forgot about FAQ changing Surge/Doomed rules.

-TR
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Jonathan Ramundi
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Tubarush wrote:

Also, Surge and Doomed only trigger during the Staging Step of the Quest Phase (per the rulebook), so they do not trigger during Setup either.

-TR


Quote:
(1.01) Encounter Keywords
Surge, Doomed, and Guarded keywords should be
resolved any time the card on which they occur enters
play, including during setup.


More inconsistancies, I'm afriad.

I just rule it such: They don't trigger unless the card or game effect bringing them into play uses a form of the word "reveal".

Why? Because, just like When Revealed effects are a special form of Forced effects (as the rulebook states), Surge, Doomed, and Guarded are special forms of When Revealed effects, essentially.

Instead of constantly writing "Forced: When this card is revealed..." they decided to shorted it to "When Revealed:" since it became a common effect.

So Surge, Doomed, and Guarded are short forms for "When Revealed: Reveal the next card from the top of the Encounter deck.", "When Revealed: Increase each player's threat by X.", and "When Revealed: Reveal the top card of the Encounter deck and attach this card to it.", respectively.

At least that's how I see/rule it.
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