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Magic: The Gathering» Forums » General

Subject: Interesting choice of trigger... rss

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Cody Holden
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Has anyone else noticed that creatures now die as opposed to being destroyed?

What constitutes dying? Why the change? Why can't I think of more questions?

Correction: As far as I can see, only one creature dies: The solemn simulacrum. What is this trickery?
 
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Antti Karjalainen
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"Dies" now replaces "is put into a graveyard from the battlefield". Short and sweet.
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Todd Pytel
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AnttiK wrote:
"Dies" now replaces "is put into a graveyard from the battlefield". Short and sweet.

Yes, this was an M12 terminology change. It makes sense to me, as "dying" is thematically what that trigger means for creatures. Though it is unfortunate that applying it to non-creatures for the sake of consistency sounds odd, which is why Wizards only did it for creatures.

In any event, "dies" will be standard terminology going forward and has already replaced the previous wording on the Oracle text for older cards. There are other cards in M12 that use it as well - Archon of Justice comes to mind.

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Cody Holden
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I see. It just seems... Odd. I kind of like the technicality of the language used on modern cards versus the less formal wording of, say, your average Arabian Nights card. But I guess this is a change I can live with.
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Matt Vollick
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Well if you have a thematic word for in play, "battlefield", it seems silly to not have a thematic word for being removed from play, "dies".

Personally, I prefer non-thematic names, but again who doesn't already use the word dies?
 
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Cody Holden
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Vollick1979 wrote:
Personally, I prefer non-thematic names, but again who doesn't already use the word dies?


I usually prefer "goes away" XD
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Matt Vollick
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jack of spades wrote:
Vollick1979 wrote:
Personally, I prefer non-thematic names, but again who doesn't already use the word dies?


I usually prefer "goes away" XD


"Goes-away" could mean it was bounced to your hand, which wouldn't trigger the "placed in the graveyard from play."
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"Master of The Obvious" here...if you're dead, you're in a graveyard.
 
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Todd Pytel
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markgravitygood wrote:
"Master of The Obvious" here...if you're dead, you're in a graveyard.

Yet there are plenty of ways to get into the graveyard without dying.
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Matt Vollick
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I'm eagerly awaiting the thematic word they'll use for discard. My money is on "forget."
 
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Cody Holden
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As far as I can remember, the only non-mechanical thematic words they had back when I started (7th ed) were Library and Graveyard.
 
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Andrés Santiago Pérez-Bergquist
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jack of spades wrote:
I see. It just seems... Odd. I kind of like the technicality of the language used on modern cards versus the less formal wording of, say, your average Arabian Nights card. But I guess this is a change I can live with.


It's still highly technical and formally worded. They've just introduced "dies" as syntactic sugar for the commonly used "is put into a graveyard from the battlefield" on creatures. Think of it as a macro or a function. They're just refactoring common functionality to make the code more legible.
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Steve Wagner
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I'm still annoyed that they got rid of Bury, especially since now they have Dies and Exiled.
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Edward Morland
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SVan wrote:
I'm still annoyed that they got rid of Bury, especially since now they have Dies and Exiled.

But if I recall bury meant something different to destroy, it precludes regeneration?, and so while they've moved some terms to thematic this doesn't tend to include ones with odd rules exceptions.
 
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Tommy Occhipinti
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SVan wrote:
I'm still annoyed that they got rid of Bury, especially since now they have Dies and Exiled.


Originally, Magic was pure theme. Words like "bury" were all over. As a consequence, Magic rules were a total blur. The alpha rulebook suggests resolving rules questions with a coin flip. As tournament Magic grew, this became an increasing problem, as judges were forced to make decisions on rulings which would affect the outcome of the game with nothing more than their common sense to guide them. This created a push towards using more legalize type wordings on cards, particularly with the sixth edition rules changes (which I believe is when bury was killed, and was replaced with spelling out exactly what it meant).

Much much later designers realized all this legalize was detracting from new players enjoyment and understanding of the game. This led to a push (in Magic 2010) to go back to the spirit of alpha with using thematic wording, while at the same time maintaining the technical rules clarity. This started with a straight translation of many words such as "in play," to the more thematic sounding "on the battlefield." They're continuing with updates like replacing "is put into the graveyard from the battlefield" with the much shorter and more thematic "dies." This doesn't represent the cards being less clear, and quite often has the opposite effect.

Anyway, to sum up, I think if the ability "destroy target creature and it can't be regenerated" was appearing on a lot of cards, they might possibly use some wording like "bury." The key thing to note, though, is that these changes happened more than 10 years apart, and R&D's philosophy has evolved quite a bit in that time, so it is no surprise they seem inconsistent.
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Andrés Santiago Pérez-Bergquist
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SVan wrote:
I'm still annoyed that they got rid of Bury, especially since now they have Dies and Exiled.


I was annoyed about that at one point in time, too, but it's a rather opaque piece of terminology. When I first saw Terror, it said "Buries target creature. Cannot target black or artifact creatures." and I thought it was a bizarre card that prevented a creature from targeting other black or artifact creatures, so I see a good argument for spelling out what they really mean in this case. It's kind of a moot point these days, though, as burying is basically gone as a game mechanic. Killing effects now pretty much all allow regeneration to make regeneration more relevant and to make exiling more distinctive (and lots more effects exile these days).
 
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Mathijs Booden
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Santiago wrote:
Killing effects now pretty much all allow regeneration to make regeneration more relevant and to make exiling more distinctive (and lots more effects exile these days).


Note that incinerate just returned in M12. It's in the same set as Cudgel Troll, a 4/3 regenerator.
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Tommy Occhipinti
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Appeal to Reason wrote:
Santiago wrote:
Killing effects now pretty much all allow regeneration to make regeneration more relevant and to make exiling more distinctive (and lots more effects exile these days).


Note that incinerate just returned in M12. It's in the same set as Cudgel Troll, a 4/3 regenerator.


Its like a sick joke!
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