Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
17 Posts

7 Wonders: Leaders» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Olympia (B) is now worse than Olympia (A) rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Alex Chen
United States
Colorado
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
Take a look at these guilds:



Notice that for Olympia's 3rd stage, only one is likely to be worth 7 or more points for you: the somewhat OP Builder's Guild. Every other guild, if it is worth a lot of points to your left or right-hand partner, it is probably not worth a lot of points to you.

Still, the fact that you sometimes got 9 points from Builder's Guild somewhat balanced the fact that you would often get an underwhelming 4-5 points. I still don't think it was worth 7 points on average when you count in the games where your neighbors didn't build a guild at all, but it was at least close.

Now, look at the new guilds:



These guilds are all bad for Olympia! You are lucky to get 5 points off of someone else's leader, since the ones that give more points than that (for instance: Plato, giving 7 points for each full set of colored cards) require intense planning. Gamer's Guild is bad because there are only so many cards that can give a player a lot of money. So if your opponent builds it, chances are you are broke. Architect's Guild and Diplomat's Guild are seldom worth more than 6 points and are usually worth less. In short, the Builder's Guild is now diluted further with 4 more guilds that don't do much for Olympia. I think I can safely say it is worth less than 7 points. Even crazier, side B's third stage actually costs MORE than side A's (an extra silk).

Let's look at the other stages now:

2-sided trade vs. 3 points

As a note, the trade ability is slightly weaker with Rome (and Manneken Pis, if you have it) in the game. Alexandria as a neighbor is also a pain because they seldom take many resources. As a whole, I want to say that these are about equal. 3 points is less powerful but more flexible. If you *want* to trade with a particular neighbor, you will be able to grab the appropriate marketplace. OTOH playing side B forbids you from taking marketplaces even if they are the best card left in the pack.

Free build vs. 5 points

I find that in games where I get stage 2 before Age III, I can get 5 points off of it. The classic example is that instead of passing a Palace that I can't build, I build it over a worse option in the pack. How many points this is depends on A. whether your opponents could build the Palace and B. What else was in the pack. But usually this is more than 5 points. Getting the free build power before Age II is nice but deceptively unimportant (it usually saves a couple of gold).

So, with the first 2 stages being relatively even and the third stage being far, far worse, I think side A is a clear choice. I also think that because the B sides are usually more powerful, Olympia is in general a weak wonder (maybe second to last). Do you agree?
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J
United States
Alexandria
Virginia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mb
I've been telling people that ever since I started playing the game.

Whenever any new player asks whats the difference between side "A and B" I always say "Most the side As are substantially weaker than the side Bs cause they rely on opponents inexperience to play well (Alexandria, Halicanarsus, Ephesus; Rhodes is just weaker on side A than B). A few have reasonable arguments why you might want to play side A but overall side B is stronger and more interesting (Bablon, Giza). Only Olympia is there a actual argument which side is better.

I've played games where the second place player was in second by less than 4 points having build the third stage of Olympia B in age 2 and ending up getting no points from it. The amusing thing about this game was on the very last turn I had Halicanarsus and I could either ttake back a 7 point guild that would have given him 6 points or a 6 point blue card. I chose the latter and won because of it

I even once was playing with someone who insisted that Olympia side B was great because of the points you can get from it and played with it only to reach the end of age 3 with no one building a guild that gave him more than 2 points (It was a 4 player game which is even worse for Olypia side B). He reversed his position on said wonder after that game.


On the flip side the power of Olympia A stage 2 is actually pretty good. Its very convenient to build it in Age 1 and to use it on a forum or military card you really want but would be expensive otherwise and of course in age 3 there are a ton of high point cards open to you.

The thing that everyone seems to forget is that you need only TWO ore to finish the third stage on side A for 7 points. Every other wonder requires 4 of a kind (brown) or two of a kind (gray). If you accumulate them yourself I would rate 1 wood & 2 ore far superior than 4 of a kind (brown) or 2 of a kind (gray).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cameron Chien
United States
Rancho Cucamonga
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The first time I got Olympia B neither of my neighbors built a guild. It sucks, but then it's no different than never getting the third symbol you need to complete a Science set.

Cameron
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex Chen
United States
Colorado
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
Zeede wrote:
The first time I got Olympia B neither of my neighbors built a guild. It sucks, but then it's no different than never getting the third symbol you need to complete a Science set.

Cameron


I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying B is a good choice?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cameron Chien
United States
Rancho Cucamonga
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm saying it's potentially a useless third stage, but then you don't have to build it if you don't see any good guilds out.

There are enough other variables that I have no control over to fret about getting Olympus as my Wonder.

Cameron
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Corban
Canada
Newmarket
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I agree. There is no reason that the player needs to build stage three. The decision is made just as with any other card in the third age. If it won't award you points, then you just do something else.

Halicarnassus is similar. The free building from the discard piles has proven to be completely useless for me every single time. I am convinced that the only time you should do it is if you yourself have discarded something of value earlier in the game.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Leber
Canada
Orillia
ON
flag msg tools
Yin
badge
Yang
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Building your levels based on your neighbors cards (and vice versa) gave me an interesting idea.

It would be neat if your player boards were more modular. So you didn't know what you were getting based on the wonder name, or the art. You'd have a random 3 wonder levels each game, and they were only revealed when you built them.

Could add some interesting elements to the game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul W
United States
Eugene
Oregon
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
If by "interesting elements" you mean less strategy and more chaos, then yes.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Leber
Canada
Orillia
ON
flag msg tools
Yin
badge
Yang
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
fizzmore wrote:
If by "interesting elements" you mean less strategy and more chaos, then yes.


I'd say only moderately so, on both fronts. Hardly game changing.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul W
United States
Eugene
Oregon
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
Holmes108 wrote:
fizzmore wrote:
If by "interesting elements" you mean less strategy and more chaos, then yes.


I'd say only moderately so, on both fronts. Hardly game changing.


It removes planning and replaces it with a random event which could be helpful or completely useless to you depending on your strategy. Likely the best response to such a change would be to completely ignore your wonder.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Leber
Canada
Orillia
ON
flag msg tools
Yin
badge
Yang
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
fizzmore wrote:
Likely the best response to such a change would be to completely ignore your wonder.


Some people already feel those levels (that depend on neighbors cards) are somewhat useless (at least against experienced players). This would just change the dynamic a bit.

Anyways, this is obviously too drastic of a change to this particular game. It can't exactly be added as a house rule, plus I like the game the way it is. I'm just spitballing different mechanics in general... possibly for another game.

Perhaps a similar research mechanic that is visible to your opponents, but there is a technology tree of sorts, with 2 or more options available.

But I'm getting off topic, anyways.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul W
United States
Eugene
Oregon
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
Sure, some wonder stages aren't that useful: but as long as you know that, you can *plan* around those stages and elect not to build them. Many other stages are useful, but only if your strategy is built to take advantage of them. Throw them in blindly and your asking people to spend a turn doing builing something that is likely not to mesh very well with their strategy, but they have no way of knowing. Given the uncertainty, the best play would be to avoid the stages altogether unless you had nothing else to build.

Drafting wonder stages or something is certainly a possibility, but it definitely runes the risk of making the game to "same-y" from one play to the next: the current design prevents players from pursuing the same strategy every game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Johannes Sjolte
Denmark
Copenhagen
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think all the wonders are pretty balanced, but isn't it posible to make 8 wonder boards with a A and a B side that is 100% balanced of course.

In my group we select the board and the side random. Maybe someone will get a little advantage or disadvantage in one game but it will be different in the next game that way it all balances out.

Also I think the skills of the players and the randomness of the cards is more important that what wonder you have in determing the winner.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Leber
Canada
Orillia
ON
flag msg tools
Yin
badge
Yang
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Zalco wrote:
I think all the wonders are pretty balanced, but isn't it posible to make 8 wonder boards with a A and a B side that is 100% balanced of course.

In my group we select the board and the side random. Maybe someone will get a little advantage or disadvantage in one game but it will be different in the next game that way it all balances out.

Also I think the skills of the players and the randomness of the cards is more important that what wonder you have in determing the winner.


We allow players to pick whatever side they want. Most of us generally think side B is better, but if someone wants to choose side A for whatever reason, nobody has a problem with it.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Hawk
Italy
flag msg tools
we play in the same way : everyone is free to choose side A o B.
generally we choose side B but for some wonders A is often better ( olympia and babylonia in you don't plan to build science cards).

anyway olympia B's 1st stage is great : "discounted bilateral market" - you can pass all the yellow cards and focus on red/blue cards
But i totally agree on useless 3rd stage: in most of the matches neighbous do different strategies, so if my right neighbour plays a guild to get bonuses on a specific color of cards, it is almost impossible that i can get the same or more points then him copying it. (if i have 8 green cards he gets 8 points with the science guild, and probably i'll get 0 cause my neighbours don't have ...)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fernando Robert Yu
Philippines
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Holmes108 wrote:
Zalco wrote:
I think all the wonders are pretty balanced, but isn't it posible to make 8 wonder boards with a A and a B side that is 100% balanced of course.

In my group we select the board and the side random. Maybe someone will get a little advantage or disadvantage in one game but it will be different in the next game that way it all balances out.

Also I think the skills of the players and the randomness of the cards is more important that what wonder you have in determing the winner.


We allow players to pick whatever side they want. Most of us generally think side B is better, but if someone wants to choose side A for whatever reason, nobody has a problem with it.


I find Rome Side A a stronger board actually...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris O
msg tools
Pixeling ain't easy, but someone's gotta do it...
badge
LION OF JUDAH
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This Wonder would have been much better if they swapped it's 3rd ability with that of the leader Ramses.

Free guilds is always worthwhile, and Ramses being kind of hidden until you play him in age 3 would have more surprise value and strategy.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.