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1860: Railways on the Isle of Wight» Forums » Rules

Subject: Initial Auction with no bids rss

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Adam Badura
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If all players pass at Initial Auction without anyone making a bid the rules say that:
Second edition wrote:
If all players fail to bid in an auction, the first player to pass is deemed to have won the auction, and may choose a certificate from those
remaining. This player pays the value of the certificate, as above, but nothing extra as no bid was made.


What does "may choose a certificate" mean? Is that player allowed not to take any certificate? What happens then? (As this essentially leads to the same situation which made him choose.)

What if that player does not have enough money to buy cheapest certificate? What if no player has? (They bid very high.)

I do realize this situations are extremely unlikely and maybe those players shouldn’t play at all (this sadly seems to be most common answer to such questions...) but still its better if rules are complete...
 
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Phil Davies
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adambadura wrote:
If all players pass at Initial Auction without anyone making a bid the rules say that:
Second edition wrote:
If all players fail to bid in an auction, the first player to pass is deemed to have won the auction, and may choose a certificate from those
remaining. This player pays the value of the certificate, as above, but nothing extra as no bid was made.


What does "may choose a certificate" mean? Is that player allowed not to take any certificate? What happens then? (As this essentially leads to the same situation which made him choose.)


He takes any certificate in the same way as if he had won the bid. You don't bid on any certificate specifically in the auction, you are just bidding for the right of first choice, so if no one bids anything the first player 'wins' for free

adambadura wrote:

What if that player does not have enough money to buy cheapest certificate? What if no player has? (They bid very high.)


If this is a follow on from your previous question, then he definitely will have enough money, if it is as a result of an actual bid then someone has made a mistake and bid too high. In this case I would rewind the auction to the earliest state possible prior to someone making said mistake. If in doubt just restart the whole auction from the word go since you won't have wasted too much time at this stage.
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Adam Badura
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Darke wrote:
adambadura wrote:
If all players pass at Initial Auction without anyone making a bid the rules say that:
Second edition wrote:
If all players fail to bid in an auction, the first player to pass is deemed to have won the auction, and may choose a certificate from those
remaining. This player pays the value of the certificate, as above, but nothing extra as no bid was made.


What does "may choose a certificate" mean? Is that player allowed not to take any certificate? What happens then? (As this essentially leads to the same situation which made him choose.)


He takes any certificate in the same way as if he had won the bid. You don't bid on any certificate specifically in the auction, you are just bidding for the right of first choice, so if no one bids anything the first player 'wins' for free


I do know that it is as if that player had won auction with bid of 0 (so he pays nothing extra but the chosen certificate). But that does not answer my question. The rules say may choose a certificate. So as far as I know he does not have to. But the rules do not cover what should happen if indeed that player didn't choose any certificate. (Putting aside whether his would be a good game decision.)

Darke wrote:
adambadura wrote:

What if that player does not have enough money to buy cheapest certificate? What if no player has? (They bid very high.)


If this is a follow on from your previous question, then he definitely will have enough money, if it is as a result of an actual bid then someone has made a mistake and bid too high. In this case I would rewind the auction to the earliest state possible prior to someone making said mistake. If in doubt just restart the whole auction from the word go since you won't have wasted too much time at this stage.


Again not necessary. Lets consider following example.

Two players are playing. First player bids all his money except the cost of cheapest certificate (he cannot bid more). Obviously the other one passes as he cannot bid more. The first player pays everything and has no money left. Now the other player bids all the money he has except the cost of cheapest certificate. The first player cannot bid more so the auction is won. Second player is also without money now. Neither player has any money but there are still 4 certificates to be auctioned!

Obviously decisions of those players were absurdly wrong. But this example only proves that the case is possible while not being to complex to explain.

The problem may also occur in smaller case, when there are players able to auction and buy but since everyone passed (somehow no one wants any of the certificate that was left with the auction extra payment) to player forced to buy with the cited rule is the one without money.

And this could happen. Lets follow the previous example.

If the second player was smarter he would notice that the first player made himself unable to buy any more certificates. So he will buy them. But in this case he wants them for bare certificate cost (without bidding) - what for would he waste money on bidding if the other player cannot bid anyway?! So he passes. The first player passes as well (because he must). So now second player buys a certificate. Again another auction but this time first player starts (as previous buy was by second player). He passes (because he must). Second player passes as well (because he does not want to pay any bid). Both passes and thus first player may choose a certificate. But is unable to pay for it.

Rules do not cover those cases.
 
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Phil Davies
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adambadura wrote:
I do know that it is as if that player had won auction with bid of 0 (so he pays nothing extra but the chosen certificate). But that does not answer my question. The rules say may choose a certificate. So as far as I know he does not have to. But the rules do not cover what should happen if indeed that player didn't choose any certificate. (Putting aside whether his would be a good game decision.)


If the player doesn't choose a certificate, that player is clearly not interested in playing the game, so you can pack it back in the box and go do something else. If you want to stick within the strictures of the rules as written, that player may not choose a certificate, then you will have another auction starting with the player to the left of the 'winner' (player 2 in your example). If everyone passes again and player 2 declines to choose a certificate then this process will carry on until someone actually buys something.

adambadura wrote:

Again not necessary. Lets consider following example.

Two players are playing. First player bids all his money except the cost of cheapest certificate (he cannot bid more). Obviously the other one passes as he cannot bid more. The first player pays everything and has no money left. Now the other player bids all the money he has except the cost of cheapest certificate. The first player cannot bid more so the auction is won. Second player is also without money now. Neither player has any money but there are still 4 certificates to be auctioned!

Obviously decisions of those players were absurdly wrong. But this example only proves that the case is possible while not being to complex to explain.

The problem may also occur in smaller case, when there are players able to auction and buy but since everyone passed (somehow no one wants any of the certificate that was left with the auction extra payment) to player forced to buy with the cited rule is the one without money.

And this could happen. Lets follow the previous example.

If the second player was smarter he would notice that the first player made himself unable to buy any more certificates. So he will buy them. But in this case he wants them for bare certificate cost (without bidding) - what for would he waste money on bidding if the other player cannot bid anyway?! So he passes. The first player passes as well (because he must). So now second player buys a certificate. Again another auction but this time first player starts (as previous buy was by second player). He passes (because he must). Second player passes as well (because he does not want to pay any bid). Both passes and thus first player may choose a certificate. But is unable to pay for it.

Rules do not cover those cases.


They don't explicitly since it's a situation where people have made a mistake. In this case I would follow the standard 18xx rules of a short OR where the privates pay out until such time as someone has enough money to continue the auction. Alternatively, scrap what you have done and start again with being being less silly with their bids.
 
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Eric Brosius
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I think the main reason this isn't clearer is that it's a great deal to get a certificate at the very start of the game without having to pay anything at auction. So it should not happen unless all the players are making errors.

I believe if all the players pass at auction, the first player is required to purchase one item at list price.
 
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Chris Shaffer
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I was in a game recently where a player was forced to take the last certificate and didn't want to do so. By purchasing the BHIRR private, he no longer had enough money to defend his IOW presidency, and I was able to steal it from him.

I think the rules as written just used the word "may" when they should have used the word "must."
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JR
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Darke wrote:
adambadura wrote:
If all players pass at Initial Auction without anyone making a bid the rules say that:
Second edition wrote:
If all players fail to bid in an auction, the first player to pass is deemed to have won the auction, and may choose a certificate from those
remaining. This player pays the value of the certificate, as above, but nothing extra as no bid was made.


What does "may choose a certificate" mean? Is that player allowed not to take any certificate? What happens then? (As this essentially leads to the same situation which made him choose.)


He takes any certificate in the same way as if he had won the bid. You don't bid on any certificate specifically in the auction, you are just bidding for the right of first choice, so if no one bids anything the first player 'wins' for free

adambadura wrote:

What if that player does not have enough money to buy cheapest certificate? What if no player has? (They bid very high.)


If this is a follow on from your previous question, then he definitely will have enough money, if it is as a result of an actual bid then someone has made a mistake and bid too high. In this case I would rewind the auction to the earliest state possible prior to someone making said mistake. If in doubt just restart the whole auction from the word go since you won't have wasted too much time at this stage.


This is correct because the rules for this game state that for a bid to be legal, the player must have enough cash in hand to pay for the bid AND the cheapest available certificate. In the case we are hypothesizing, the rules were broken if a bid was made that left a player without enough cash to purchase something.

Edit: Rules check and I actually found something I hadn't caught before:

2nd Ed. rules wrote:

If the player has insufficient funds to pay for a certificate, then he pays what he can out of hand for the cheapest available certificate. If this certificate is one of the director's shares, then the company is set at the lowest allowed par price (74).


To end up at this point, all players must have passed since the only way this player could end up having this option is by winning an all-pass.
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Adam Badura
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jrebelo wrote:
This is correct because the rules for this game state that for a bid to be legal, the player must have enough cash in hand to pay for the bid AND the cheapest available certificate. In the case we are hypothesizing, the rules were broken if a bid was made that left a player without enough cash to purchase something.[/quote]

I might have been not clear enough. But I did provide an example. It is possible for the players two use all their money while buying their first certificates (bid your money - cheapest certificate price). So in result there might come a moment when there are still certificates to buy while players don't have money.

jrebelo wrote:
Edit: Rules check and I actually found something I hadn't caught before:

[q="2nd Ed. rules"]
If the player has insufficient funds to pay for a certificate, then he pays what he can out of hand for the cheapest available certificate. If this certificate is one of the director's shares, then the company is set at the lowest allowed par price (74).


To end up at this point, all players must have passed since the only way this player could end up having this option is by winning an all-pass.


This would solve the issue. Yet I haven't seen this text in the PDF version of the rules. On which page it is?
 
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JR
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adambadura wrote:
jrebelo wrote:

2nd Ed. rules wrote:

If the player has insufficient funds to pay for a certificate, then he pays what he can out of hand for the cheapest available certificate. If this certificate is one of the director's shares, then the company is set at the lowest allowed par price (74).


To end up at this point, all players must have passed since the only way this player could end up having this option is by winning an all-pass.


This would solve the issue. Yet I haven't seen this text in the PDF version of the rules. On which page it is?


Page 5 of the rules that came with my reprint copy.
 
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Chris Shaffer
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jrebelo wrote:
Page 5 of the rules that came with my reprint copy.


Sigh. A quick check confirms that my printed rules also have this, but it is missing from the PDF available on the JKLM Games web site.

http://www.jklmgames.com/pdf/1860_v2.pdf

Thus, we now must assume that the PDF is not authoritative.
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Chris Shaffer
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Mike Hutton has clarified on the 18xx YahooGroup that the printed rules are the correct version. He says "The intention was always that buying the initial share was mandatory, and in that sense the word used should have been must instead of may."
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