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Subject: Random assortment of newbie questions rss

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Gavin Cooper
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Hi folks! Had my first game using the Core Set this weekend. Really enjoyed it, though I can see how much more fun melee is going to be once I've inducted a few of my gaming buddies We kind of muddled through our jousts as best we could - I'd already read the rulebook a couple of times and played a dummy game against myself, and we referred back to the rules when we could. But obviously a lot of what makes a game like this fun is the complexity of all the possible card/rule interactions. As a result, there were a few edge case that cropped up. As well as that, we're both used to older CCG games such as magic, so some of the rules seemed sufficiently weird that we weren't entirely confident that we'd understood them.

Any rules lawyers up for taking a quick look through this list of questions and offering their take on the issues we've run into? I'd be very grateful for any pointers

1. "Immune to character abilities" Does this include keywords such as Deadly, Stealth etc.? I can see how a character might be immune to stealth - you just can't pick that character as the target who can't defend. But how does Deadly work? Are they immune to the death? In other words, if I have one immune character defending against one deadly character, can he avoid being killed at the resolution of the challenge?

If so, how does that work if I defend with two characters? Can I choose the immune dude as the target of deadly and then he just doesn't die? Or am I forced to pick the non-immune character as the only valid target for the deadly keyword?

2. I'm pretty sure on this one - ALL characters, unique or non-unique, go into the dead pile. Not the discard pile. Right? But only unique characters have to worry about whether a character of the same name is already in the dead pile?

2a. I get the dead pile, it's to distinguish between characters that have been discarded before they ever saw the table, and characters that have been in play but then killed. (It's a great mechanic, by the way, I love it). What about unique locations? Their uniqueness prevents you from having more than one in play, but as locations are discarded, not killed, does that mean you can play a second one later if the first is removed from play and sent to the discard pile? Or do unique locations go into the dead pile, so they can be tracked as having previously existed (I would have thought the Deathbound keyword would have indicated that). Or do they go into the discard, but you still can't play a duplicate of it if there's a copy in the discard pile? Oh, this goes for attachments, too (like Ice).

3. Greatjon. You can kneel him to have him participate in a challenge - this is his card text. Is this a purely melee power? I.e. in a 2-player joust, it has no meaning as all challenges involve his owner anyway? Or is there something I'm missing? Could you use his ability to insert him into a challenge after defenders have been declared, maybe?

4. More confirmation because it's different to most other CCGs I've played. Cards come into play standing, and can be knelt/otherwise used the instant they're in play? And, as an addendum to that, card abilities that don't involve kneeling (e.g. pay 2 gold to...) can still be used even if the character is knelt?

5. Is it always the case that if a card means your character, it'll say "your" or "a character you own" or similar. I.e. if ever you see the words "pick a character" on their own, you really can pick any character, controlled by anybody? (notwithstanding other character abilities that prevent them from being targeted)

6. Tywin Lannister. His ability lets you put gold counters on him, that you can then "spend as if they were in your gold pool", suggesting that although you can spend them as if they were, in actuality they're not. Does that mean gold on Tywin Lannister a) is lost during the taxation phase, and b) counted for dominance?

7. Stannis' Northern Cavalry. They cannot be killed or discarded from play during a phase in which their STR has been raised or lowered. Say you have a plot that gives all your characters +1 STR. Does that mean their STR was raised in the plot phase, and that by the time the challenge phase comes around they're vulnerable again? Or is the raising/lowering considered to have occurred in all phases that it's active?

8. Similar to one above. The Power of Blood, noble characters cannot be killed. Does that mean they can't be selected by their owner to be killed, so have to choose a different, non-noble character? Or does it mean you can select them to be killed, but they'll survive anyway due to the plot's effect?

9. Lannisport Brothel. After a knelt character stands kneel this location to kneel that character. Since all cards stand simultaneously, it seems like it should be okay to do this even if the brothel was knelt prior to the standing phase. But it just seemed like a very powerful effect for a 2-gold location, to be able to lock a character down round after round with no further cost. Were we playing this one right?

Phew, think that's it! Thanks in advance for any help. It's much appreciated
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Daniel Ach
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First of all, good job with these rules. I think you got them all right for the most part and you have good instinct. You can find the official FAQ that addresses a lot of these minutae and more on the support page on FFG's website.

kithkill wrote:
1. "Immune to character abilities" Does this include keywords such as Deadly, Stealth etc.? I can see how a character might be immune to stealth - you just can't pick that character as the target who can't defend. But how does Deadly work? Are they immune to the death? In other words, if I have one immune character defending against one deadly character, can he avoid being killed at the resolution of the challenge?

If so, how does that work if I defend with two characters? Can I choose the immune dude as the target of deadly and then he just doesn't die? Or am I forced to pick the non-immune character as the only valid target for the deadly keyword?

Keywords are not character abilities. Abilities are any triggered effect printed on a character (i.e. Any Phase: or Response:)

kithkill wrote:
2. I'm pretty sure on this one - ALL characters, unique or non-unique, go into the dead pile. Not the discard pile. Right? But only unique characters have to worry about whether a character of the same name is already in the dead pile?

Correct.

kithkill wrote:
2a. I get the dead pile, it's to distinguish between characters that have been discarded before they ever saw the table, and characters that have been in play but then killed. (It's a great mechanic, by the way, I love it). What about unique locations? Their uniqueness prevents you from having more than one in play, but as locations are discarded, not killed, does that mean you can play a second one later if the first is removed from play and sent to the discard pile? Or do unique locations go into the dead pile, so they can be tracked as having previously existed (I would have thought the Deathbound keyword would have indicated that). Or do they go into the discard, but you still can't play a duplicate of it if there's a copy in the discard pile? Oh, this goes for attachments, too (like Ice).

Correct. Unique locations, attachments, and events are not "killed" so you can play more later after a previous copy leaves play.

kithkill wrote:
3. Greatjon. You can kneel him to have him participate in a challenge - this is his card text. Is this a purely melee power? I.e. in a 2-player joust, it has no meaning as all challenges involve his owner anyway? Or is there something I'm missing? Could you use his ability to insert him into a challenge after defenders have been declared, maybe?

Exactly. In melee he can join any challenge as the defender. In joust he can get thrown in after you initially declare defenders, but before the challenge resolves. His ability can also bypass if he were stealthed.

kithkill wrote:
4. More confirmation because it's different to most other CCGs I've played. Cards come into play standing, and can be knelt/otherwise used the instant they're in play? And, as an addendum to that, card abilities that don't involve kneeling (e.g. pay 2 gold to...) can still be used even if the character is knelt?

Correct. Correct.

kithkill wrote:
5. Is it always the case that if a card means your character, it'll say "your" or "a character you own" or similar. I.e. if ever you see the words "pick a character" on their own, you really can pick any character, controlled by anybody? (notwithstanding other character abilities that prevent them from being targeted)

Costs must all be payed by the owner, so if an ability says "do x to do y" X is the cost and Y is the effect. If X is kneeling a character, it must be a character you control. Card abilities that have the title of the card as part of the text are self-referential. For example, Robb Stark says "Response: After you win a challenge in which Robb Stark participates, choose and kill a character controlled by the losing player." You can't trigger this when another player controlling Robb Stark wins a challenge, but only when your specific Robb Stark wins a challenge. If an ability says "choose a character" it can be any character no matter who controls it.

kithkill wrote:
6. Tywin Lannister. His ability lets you put gold counters on him, that you can then "spend as if they were in your gold pool", suggesting that although you can spend them as if they were, in actuality they're not. Does that mean gold on Tywin Lannister a) is lost during the taxation phase, and b) counted for dominance?

No and no. You can only spend it as if it were in your gold pool. It doesn't therefore count for dominance, and doesn't go away at taxation.

kithkill wrote:
7. Stannis' Northern Cavalry. They cannot be killed or discarded from play during a phase in which their STR has been raised or lowered. Say you have a plot that gives all your characters +1 STR. Does that mean their STR was raised in the plot phase, and that by the time the challenge phase comes around they're vulnerable again? Or is the raising/lowering considered to have occurred in all phases that it's active?

Not as sure about this since constant effect are confusing. This is a constant effect that doesn't change while the plot is revealed so it's not like it triggers again and again every phase. So since it's not raised every phase, I think they can only gain that immunity when he plot is initially revealed during the plot phase.

kithkill wrote:
8. Similar to one above. The Power of Blood, noble characters cannot be killed. Does that mean they can't be selected by their owner to be killed, so have to choose a different, non-noble character? Or does it mean you can select them to be killed, but they'll survive anyway due to the plot's effect?

Correct. They can not even be selected to be killed. You have to choose someone else for claim or any other effects that choose a character to be killed.

kithkill wrote:
9. Lannisport Brothel. After a knelt character stands kneel this location to kneel that character. Since all cards stand simultaneously, it seems like it should be okay to do this even if the brothel was knelt prior to the standing phase. But it just seemed like a very powerful effect for a 2-gold location, to be able to lock a character down round after round with no further cost. Were we playing this one right?

Yes, you were playing it right, and it is powerful.
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Gavin Cooper
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Brilliant stuff! Thanks for the speedy - and thorough - response, it was just what I was looking for. You've cleared up quite a bit for me

Thanks!
 
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Tagore Nakornchai
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danach81 wrote:
First of all, good job with these rules. I think you got them all right for the most part and you have good instinct. You can find the official FAQ that addresses a lot of these minutae and more on the support page on FFG's website.

kithkill wrote:
1. "Immune to character abilities" Does this include keywords such as Deadly, Stealth etc.? I can see how a character might be immune to stealth - you just can't pick that character as the target who can't defend. But how does Deadly work? Are they immune to the death? In other words, if I have one immune character defending against one deadly character, can he avoid being killed at the resolution of the challenge?

If so, how does that work if I defend with two characters? Can I choose the immune dude as the target of deadly and then he just doesn't die? Or am I forced to pick the non-immune character as the only valid target for the deadly keyword?

Keywords are not character abilities. Abilities are any triggered effect printed on a character (i.e. Any Phase: or Response:)

There are also passive character abilities. For example the oldtown version of Daenaerys (http://agot.dbler.com/index.php?view=card&arsenalid=119099) has a passive character ability which buffs the strength of all your Targaryen characters by 1. If you have Warlock's Servitors in play (http://agot.dbler.com/index.php?view=card&arsenalid=20122), they would not gain the strength boost from her because they are immune to all character abilities - even positive ones or your own.
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Daniel Ach
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True! Character abilities also include passive and constant abilities as well (Danaerys Targaryen from Oldtown is a constant effect). In the FAQ it says character abilities are anything in the text box except keywords and traits.

Thanks for the gg, btw.
 
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Iron James Rackham
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danach81 wrote:
kithkill wrote:
3. Greatjon. You can kneel him to have him participate in a challenge - this is his card text. Is this a purely melee power? I.e. in a 2-player joust, it has no meaning as all challenges involve his owner anyway? Or is there something I'm missing? Could you use his ability to insert him into a challenge after defenders have been declared, maybe?

Exactly. In melee he can join any challenge as the defender. In joust he can get thrown in after you initially declare defenders, but before the challenge resolves. His ability can also bypass if he were stealthed.

Since I asked a similar question some time ago, I just thought I'd clarify:
Greatjon can't actually bypass if he's already been stealthed. He can however use his ability in the action window between [ declaring attackers ] and [ declaring defenders (in which stealth targets are assigned) ].
 
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Daniel Ach
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ironJames wrote:
danach81 wrote:
kithkill wrote:
3. Greatjon. You can kneel him to have him participate in a challenge - this is his card text. Is this a purely melee power? I.e. in a 2-player joust, it has no meaning as all challenges involve his owner anyway? Or is there something I'm missing? Could you use his ability to insert him into a challenge after defenders have been declared, maybe?

Exactly. In melee he can join any challenge as the defender. In joust he can get thrown in after you initially declare defenders, but before the challenge resolves. His ability can also bypass if he were stealthed.

Since I asked a similar question some time ago, I just thought I'd clarify:
Greatjon can't actually bypass if he's already been stealthed. He can however use his ability in the action window between [ declaring attackers ] and [ declaring defenders (in which stealth targets are assigned) ].

I stand corrected. Sorry about that. blush
 
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John Steinbach
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danach81 wrote:
First of all, good job with these rules. I think you got them all right for the most part and you have good instinct. You can find the official FAQ that addresses a lot of these minutae and more on the support page on FFG's website.

kithkill wrote:
2a. I get the dead pile, it's to distinguish between characters that have been discarded before they ever saw the table, and characters that have been in play but then killed. (It's a great mechanic, by the way, I love it). What about unique locations? Their uniqueness prevents you from having more than one in play, but as locations are discarded, not killed, does that mean you can play a second one later if the first is removed from play and sent to the discard pile? Or do unique locations go into the dead pile, so they can be tracked as having previously existed (I would have thought the Deathbound keyword would have indicated that). Or do they go into the discard, but you still can't play a duplicate of it if there's a copy in the discard pile? Oh, this goes for attachments, too (like Ice).

Correct. Unique locations, attachments, and events are not "killed" so you can play more later after a previous copy leaves play.


One minor addendum: while it is true that nearly all unique non-character cards go to the discard pile when they leave play, there are a few in expansions/chapter packs that do wind up in the dead pile (the event "Battle of Ruby Ford" comes to mind.). In such cases, you cannot play another copy of that unique card, even though it may not be a character. However, these situations are very rare outside of particular deck types, so you will almost always send characters to the dead pile and everything else to the discard pile (unless an effect specifically "discards" a character from play, in which case that character goes to the discard pile).
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Daniel Ach
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Starhawk77 wrote:
danach81 wrote:

Correct. Unique locations, attachments, and events are not "killed" so you can play more later after a previous copy leaves play.


One minor addendum: while it is true that nearly all unique non-character cards go to the discard pile when they leave play, there are a few in expansions/chapter packs that do wind up in the dead pile (the event "Battle of Ruby Ford" comes to mind.). In such cases, you cannot play another copy of that unique card, even though it may not be a character. However, these situations are very rare outside of particular deck types, so you will almost always send characters to the dead pile and everything else to the discard pile (unless an effect specifically "discards" a character from play, in which case that character goes to the discard pile).

You're talking about the deathbound keyword. Right now Battle of Ruby Ford is the only unique event with the deathbound keyword. The other card with deathbound is Forever Burning, but since it isn't unique it doesn't matter it's in the deadpile for playing another copy of it.
 
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