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Subject: Knee Deep in the Dead Walkthrough rss

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Mike zebrowski
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As promised long ago, I played a 4 player game of Doom. The results are here : http://www.prosperity-station.com/Doom/doomwalkthrough.html .

It is a Power Point presentation that uses lots of animation. I'm not sure that it will work with Open Office. You'll need Powerpoint 2003 or the free Powerpoint 2003 viewer to review it.

It only took 26 hours to make this presentation.

Mike Z
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Mike Weaver
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That was unbelievable! I played my first game last night using the same scenerio. My wife and I played 2 player, I was the invaders and she the marines. I took it real easy on her since it was our first play and we wanted to play around with the cards and strategies. Your presentation made me look deeper into the mechanics and I eagerly await the other scenerios (if you plan on doing the same with them). Thank you so much for this! If i had any GG i'd tip you, so here's some "virtual" GG. I owe you some. bag
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Mike zebrowski
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Thanks for the kind words. I doubt that I'll hit the other adventures. I wasn't kidding when I mentioned that it took 26 hours to do the Powerpoint presentation. (I now lothe Trites and the scuttle ability, they take forever to animate!) It took about another 10 hours to play and record the game.

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Your presentation made me look deeper into the mechanics


Doom is a real subtle game despite the theme. The best way to learn it is to play both sides.

Mike Z
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Ben Turner
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Mike Z,

Having read both sides of the "Dooms too hard" argument for the last 6 months, and remained somewhat undecided each way, I was really happy to see you had taken to this challenge and drawn up a solo winning game.

What sit with me now is that Doom is a game for intelligent and experienced board gamers - some of the tactics you used and worked well were tactics that didn't seem "logical" in a sqaud based game sense, but made perfect sense within the game rules - e.g. those who play it as a game such as chess will do well, those who treat it as a simulation will be dissapointed at there level of success, IMHO.

The presentation was great and acts as a confirmation that the game can be completed in good style. I think when I introduce new friends to the game, I would be encouraged to let them play the invaders... I think a more balanced game would be had that way. But I hope that in time I will have them beating me even when I am the invader player. Once again, I have shared the problem of other board members of having to "go soft" on the players just to not over-demoralize them.

Thanks again for your fine presentation - it should act as a good counterpoint to many of the more fatal board members, and maybe help focus future conversation of strengths vrs weaknesses into more productive channels.

Regards,
Ben
 
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Dee Squared
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A few things, just from recollection:

--------------------------------------
1) Accuracy of Reporting.

How does a Chaingun score 6 pips of damage on a blowthrough attack? The max dice you can roll is 1r, 1g. Max pipcount for damage is 5. And it uses up an ammo at that point. Which your 6 pip blowthrough attack also lacked. (Trust me Mike, this one's in there.)

This is, admittedly, 'comma chasing'.

----------------------------------------
2) Poor Delay Tactics

The Invader neglected to use monsters as meatwalls at appropriate times. For example, the red marine's "do or die" move into room 2 could from area 5 should have been foiled easily by positioning a demon across the doorway. It's also worth noting that the zombie and other demon in area 3 at the time were moved into extremely poor positions considering their immediate opponent carried the chainsaw. Sweep, dead. Very sloppy. both the zombie and rightmost demon had enough movement to strike and back off a bit down the east and south corridors, respectively. Let the marine decide which bad guy he wants to kill, then frag him with the two survivors.

-------------------------------
3) Extremely Poor Trite Usage.

Specific example: The decision to hold back trites from killing the blue marine in room 8. The opportunity was there for a cheap frag, and it should have been taken. Success would also strip the extra armor from the blue marine.

So they're BFG bait after the cheapshot... so what. They're TRITES. If the marines are dumb enough to blow cell ammo on 4-5 trites, I say let them. But looking at the layout at that time, if the blue marine was fragged where he stood, he'd have to respawn back in the hallway, and not in room 8 at all.

--------------------------------
4) Poor Invader Cardplay.

The Invader should always, always, always have his hand either a)down to five cards, or b)down to 6 cards, provided one of those cards is playable during the marine turn, and the triggering event is automatic/very likely. The Invader should never be discarding after his draw. The only excuse would be a hand composed entirely of spawn cards from the previous turn. There's no way that the Invader should be looking at his starting hand and saying "Man, I've gotta hold that card for the endgame". Would some cards be played possibly sub-optimally? Sure... but at least they'd be played.

--------------------------------------------

Given the final 3 points, I feel that the invader play was definitely sub-par. Therefore this presentation does nothing to move forward the position that Doom is balanced for 3 marines in any way, shape or form.

I'm sorry Mike. Believe me, I really wanted for you to show me something I'd missed. Something that explains why the Invader constantly beats down multiple marines. You haven't.

I'm giving you a pass on point one, as discussing it can only lead down two paths. One path is irrelevant, and the other would undercut the relevance of any further discussion on any point derived from the presentation.

If you'd like to adress any of points 2, 3, or 4, please do so.
 
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Mike zebrowski
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1) It is likely a typo, I'll have to check my notes when I get back from my buisness trip. In any event, in the end the chaingun blowthrough attack didn't matter. The Hell Knight was taken out by the BFG.

2)
Quote:
For example, the red marine's "do or die" move into room 2 could from area 5 should have been foiled easily by positioning a demon across the doorway.


When the monsters moved, I didn't know that the Marine was going to attempt the glory run as it would involve 5 seperate attacks. The smarter move would have been to Unload and use the chaingun and kill the Demons first. With that in mind, I positioned the Demons so that their narrow side was facing the Marine so that he could not blowthrough down their length. With Dark Energies in hand, it would have been extremely unlikely that the Marine could kill both Demons. The zombie was perfectly safe where he was at. There wasn't anyway to kill off both Demons and the Zombie and the Zombie was the lesser threat.

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It's also worth noting that the zombie and other demon in area 3 at the time were moved into extremely poor positions considering their immediate opponent carried the chainsaw. Sweep, dead. Very sloppy.


Nope. A chainsaw can not kill an undamaged Demon. The max damage of a chainsaw is 5 and it takes 6 to kill a Demon. Also, the Marine would need to move next to the Demon first, which would have provoke an attack.

Quote:

both the zombie and rightmost demon had enough movement to strike and back off a bit down the east and south corridors, respectively. Let the marine decide which bad guy he wants to kill, then frag him with the two survivors.


Wouldn't have worked. The Red Marine could have unloaded at all available targets and then have the Blue Marine put a Guard or Dodge order on him.

Besides the goal wasn't to kill the Red Marine as fast as possible. That would have been stupid. The goal was to delay him as much as possible. If the Red Marine was killed, he could have re-spawned in the Start Area and run up Area 1 to Area 2.

3)
Quote:

Extremely Poor Trite Usage.

Specific example: The decision to hold back trites from killing the blue marine in room 8. The opportunity was there for a cheap frag, and it should have been taken. Success would also strip the extra armor from the blue marine.


The plan for the Trites was to block the Red Door and act as a banana peel for the Marines. That plan fell through. At the time, I had an undamaged Hell Knight and Archvile in the room with two Charge cards. Spawn cards were getting kind of rare, so I decided to conserve my resources. As I mentioned at the start of the Walkthrough, hindsight is 20/20. At the time, it felt like the right decision.


4)
Quote:
There's no way that the Invader should be looking at his starting hand and saying "Man, I've gotta hold that card for the endgame". Would some cards be played possibly sub-optimally? Sure... but at least they'd be played.


I have to disagree. If you want to debate specific examples, I'll debate those examples. I played the Invader the same way that I always do and as part of my play style, I conserve resources until they can be best used.

Quote:

Given the final 3 points, I feel that the invader play was definitely sub-par. Therefore this presentation does nothing to move forward the position that Doom is balanced for 3 marines in any way, shape or form.


If any side was sub-par, it was the Marines. By mixing up Scout and Recon, the Marines made an extremely stupid deviation from their plan. (The mix-up was due to playing the game over several days.) The Marines didn't realize the mistake until Turn 18 at which point it was far too late to correct it. I could have gone back to turn 9 or 10, when the mistake was made, but that would have been against the rules of the challenge as well as a massive amount of work thrown away.

Of course, the Invader was under the same mis-conception and made plans to counter the Recon ability. However, when the mistake was discovered, the Invader was in a far better position to adjust.

Quote:
I'm sorry Mike. Believe me, I really wanted for you to show me something I'd missed. Something that explains why the Invader constantly beats down multiple marines. You haven't.


I answered the challege made of me. I played both sides to the best of my ability. I never promised that I'd play a perfect game, I am human after all.

Tell you what. You spend 30 hours putting together a similar presentation and I'll critique where you made mistakes.

Mike Z
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Damien Browne
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Mike,
I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for your hard work. I recognise the hours you have spent making this presentation and playing that game stepped out and recorded in such detail. I recognise that you have done so purely for our benefit as nay-sayers, or in the least, in defence of the game against our nay-saying. I personally have been such a person discrediting DOOM with imbalance. I recognise that you personally gain nothing in addressing my concern, and I appreciate your extreme effort. I also recognise that I probably would have begun the exercise and given up around one third of the way through, so all the more kudos to you in being thorough.

I have only watched about half of the presentation thus far, because there is a lot to take in, and I want to address each question I have, and discuss the impact on your case game.
Firstly, I agree (and always have) with the "trap" comments, and have always played the game with that in mind. As the marine, I avoid the corridor and never make it into the northern corridor. I do admit however, the sensibility of perhaps clearing the map out before I take the red key - which is a mistake made in all games I've played in as either invader or marine. As the invader, I rarely let marines even get into the blue key room, let alone out of it alive.
Secondly, were the marine combos random?
I notice that you have some pretty good combos. Granted, you need good combos to win, and sometimes even better combos come out, but I would just like it stated for the record whether the combos were chosen or random. I have done an assessment of player combos, and you have two of the combos I consider close to being best in the game.

Your turn 1 looks a lot like my turn 1 as the marine, especially if I have the scout in play.
As the invader, I too would have tempted fate and saved the dud card for the grenades. I realise however, that the invader MUST play cards when they can. I usually make a few mistakes as a player, of course. The difference though, is that in my games the marines always go straight for the grenades and straight for the red key room. (This decision I now see to be their largest downfall as it opens too many spawn locations.)
With your tactics, and knowing that you’ll not collect the grenades until you’re ready to tackle the northern section. I would feel more confident that I’d get a dud later on anyway. Hence, I’d try to find a more effective dud use before then – in the hopes you’d never get that far. I assume that the players discuss their strategy at the start of the game, and probably with the invader present?
With this in mind, the invader would know that he would not need to protect the grenades for some time, as it is most useful in opening the door to the red key room and killing a demon before you collect the red key. Thus, if the invader played the dud card in turn 1, (which seems very senseless!!) he could have saved the dark energies card. This is crucial to the early confrontation in the corridor.

Like I said, I have so many questions already, and I’ve only watched maybe fifteen turns or so. On the surface, it looks like the marines play extremely well (including some lucky die rolls!) but I think more important that the invader didn’t play so well.

Question 1: In turn 2 (slide 11, I believe), why did the invader spawn the demon? It is clear that the marines were able to use a guard attack to attack the demon before the demon was able to attack the marines. This is sub optimal play for the invader. I would have spawned the imp-trite-zombie. I'd use the imp to attack from range (either using up his guard, or dealing damage and destroying the guard.) Then the zombie would have dealt almost as much damage as the demon, but with a 50% chance of the two invaders remaining in play for harassment and the 'indecision' effect. The trite would move onto the grill as his only action.
Not only this, but three more things. 1. The invader actually gets to use a zombie and imp while they are actually useful (well, the zombie is always useful. The imp isn't always useful but definitely so to remove a guard order!) and 2. You can save the demon for when it is more effective. This is key to the invader player's tactic, and you even pointed this out regarding the desire to save the mancubus!!
3. The invader player could have played the jammed card against the guard order, although I would advise against playing it to save an imp unless you have 6 or more cards left. This is definitely the case, so very likely you'd still have both the zombue and imp invaders left alive. The spin off to this is that you do not have to discard cards in the next turn.

Corollary 1A: With this in mind, if the marines ignore the two or three invaders behind them, on turn 3 I would NOT have used the jammed card (I would consider it a "missed opportunity", but it actually helps me in the long run. The shotgun has poor odds of getting range two. The aim would definitely give it a chance, but would it make it? Would it kill it? Would it use up the second attack to kill, which would save the second zombie becoming injured at all? Very possibly so.

Corollary 1B: For the invader's third turn, he now has two choices. He already has his harassment forces. If he lost the imp last turn, I would play the imp/zombie. If he still has the imp from last turn, I could now play the demon. The demon would be able to walk up, attack blue, and retreat one square. Zombies could fill in the gap, with the imp being used to take up the initial guard order. If the invader didn't play the demon, you'd have zombies as the harassment, but still have the demon in your hand. I believe I’d take this choice, because I do have a darkness card to play. This has many effects on the game at hand:
a. Whittling down the marines life, with effectively no cost. (Zombies and Imps? Fodder.)
b. Demon still yet to play.
c. Marines must choose to split their attack, or ignore the damage.
d. Marines could use ammo in split attacks and/or break their 'plan'. Any delay to keep them in the corridor tempts them to pick the grenades too early, if they feel swamped.
e. If he played the dud card early, he now has dark energies to heal a zombie if it is damaged, providing further fodder. Zombies actually deal high damage, also, and this is important.

Corollary 1C: You weren't able to make this choice in your game, but played as I describe, I would have to. With blue so close to death, but being able to spawn in a forward direction, I'd switch attacks on to the green marine to try to begin whittling him down as well. I plan for WHEN I frag the marines, which has more effect than just fragging them. Not only that, but being able to make quick consecutive frags also has more effect than just taking them ‘one per turn’. If I can frag all three marines in the same turn, when all three are as far forward as they've ever been then all three must respawn behind, and lose many effective turns recovering their ground. More turns equals more frags.

Because I'd have started the game so differently as the invader player, most of my further questions become irrelevant. Many of my tactics might not have worked so well in your game, but only because the demon was so badly wasted at the beginning, when the marines very clearly could not be held back. (You can never hold the marines in their starting bay!!) In your game, the marines only play so well because they are able to eliminate every invader on the board before they collect all the equipment. This is directly affected by the wasted play of the demon on turn 2.

My continued strategy would normally have been to move an invader onto the grenades preventing the marines from being able to pick it up. Against a marine such as yourself, I'd perhaps not do this, but more likely block access paths to the doors I know you intend to open. Perhaps I'd have split my forces as bait for the chainsaw but forcing a watchful attack – thus eliminating the effectiveness of the dodge order. I’d use the darkness order optimally to create a pincer with the two demons, forcing a marine (perhaps the machine gun marine) to either waste his turn unloading into a demon, or waste his advance because he could move through them, and he did not kill either demon with a single attack. Further, he would then be fragged in his next turn and forced to respawn back in the starting bay, with a demon or two still blocking his path.
This in turn would force other marines to retrace their steps, and perhaps lose full line of sight into the eastern corridor. (I doubt this with your skill level, but in the best case scenario!)

Regardless, losing the demon so early in the game was the ultimate price the invader paid and brought about his failure. It caused him to become impotent through out the first fifteen turns (in the least) and allowed the marines to control the scenario. Further, a fact that I could not believe, and the ultimate point which made me respond to this before I even finished watching, was the fact that the invader SKIPPED HIS TURN, without playing ANYTHING!!!
EVEN IF he failed so miserably before hand, so miserably losing the demon and the mancubus, and not controlling the board, EVEN IF that happened, why didn't he at least play SOMETHING!? He could have spawned an imp. He could have played a dud. The moment he was in a position in which he was so impotent that he had a whole turn in which he could (chose to) do nothing, he might as well have conceded the game. His opponent was a far superior player to him.
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Damien Browne
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Mike Zebrowski wrote:

Tell you what. You spend 30 hours putting together a similar presentation and I'll critique where you made mistakes.

Mike Z


Because you made such an effort in your attempt, I'm inclined to do so.
To do so might 1.) Prove and end this discussion one way or another 2.) Give me something to do for the next two weeks when I'm at home with nobody to game against, 3.) Provide insight from an expert on how to improve my game and 4.) Remove the dust that has settled on my game box!



But at the end of my case scenario, please don't expect a fantastic write up on a web site like you have done. I don't have the time or patience to complete that, nor the resources.

If I do acknowledge your challenge, what constraints are placed? Are the marines skill combos forced upon me? Are they forced to be random?
Because the only way to PROVE that the game is inbalanced in favour of the invader is to play against the MOST EFFECTIVE marines, and play them as effectively as possible. And then still be crushed.

So, if you have a combo that you deem the most effective marine skill set possible, please suggest that I play that, instead of a random skill set. However, if you want to prove that the game GENERALLY is over balanced in favour of the invader (which is what i believe) then I only need to crushingly defeat a random skill set.

Please advise.
 
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Mike zebrowski
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I'm a bit tired to read your entire post, but I wanted to address this.

bluebehir wrote:

Secondly, were the marine combos random?


Yes, they were and they were assigned in the order that they were drawn.

Mike Z

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Dee Squared
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Mike Zebrowski wrote:

I answered the challege made of me. I played both sides to the best of my ability. I never promised that I'd play a perfect game, I am human after all.

Tell you what. You spend 30 hours putting together a similar presentation and I'll critique where you made mistakes.

Mike Z



Your presentation, while impressive, must still be able to withstand scrutiny from outside observers. I'm not about to pat anyone on the head and give an 'attaboy based simply upon the amount of time they put in.

Nobody asked you to play a perfect game. A good game would have sufficed.

As it stands, an in depth critique of overall strategy is impossible, as the variables of "what if's" stack up amazingly fast. What can be critiqued are the decisions of each turn, in isolation. And as I do this, I keep coming up with outright poor play from the Invader, given the tools he had to work with at the time.

The 11th turn stands out. The Red vs Green dilemma from "It's a Trap" was played so poorly as to be farcical. When given the choice of most likely:

a)wounding a marine (Imps), or
b)fragging a marine (Demons),

the Invader should most definitely have gone for the frag. Frags are what win the game. Every frag is another nail in the coffin. Damn the Torpedoes, frag, frag, frag.

Holding the Demons back because you were afraid of them getting grenaded to death is pointless. Especially considering the two "Jump the Gun" cards the Invader was holding at the time. Demons move up, attack Green, and when the Blue turn comes up, "Jump" back to the ready position. Or not, if Green is still standing there... all the better to tempt the grenade lobber to score a frag for you with friendly fire. Or have one Demon "Jump" up into Blue's face, and the other back off.

Instead the Demons stand around with their hooves up their backsides and get wasted anyways for their troubles. Does everybody in your group play the Invader so tentatively? Marines are efficient killing machines. Creatures are going to get killed. It's imperative that they accomplish something before getting snuffed.

Stop holding up bad play as evidence of a game's balance.
 
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Perhaps that's the problem.
Those that claim that the game is unbalanced, probably play the invader far more aggressive and effective.

Perhaps those that suffer less from the balance issues, play the invader "softer"??


Let me take the oppurtunity to praise Mike's effort to make the presentation, it is a great resource for learning the game!
*thumbs up*


What did strike me was that the entire game was played by Marines that knew the scenario. Planning the perfect route, the perfect LOS-spots, the best goodie-runs and using some nice Marine Card Combos.
All-in-all, the Marines were fully prepared and still got stung with 4 frags!!

That's not even considering that the Invader made some less-efficient decisions...
So, 4 frags during the FIRST scenario?
...that surely means they might get creamed in the 2nd scenario, which is certainly-without-a-doubt way more difficult then the first scenario, imho.
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Damien Browne
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Mike Zebrowski wrote:
The plan for the Trites was to block the Red Door and act as a banana peel for the Marines. That plan fell through. At the time, I had an undamaged Hell Knight and Archvile in the room with two Charge cards. Spawn cards were getting kind of rare, so I decided to conserve my resources. As I mentioned at the start of the Walkthrough, hindsight is 20/20. At the time, it felt like the right decision.


Apart from a couple mistakes you made with invader placement, my biggest beef with your handling of the invader's game was that you "held off til the end".

Effectively, your invader is LETTING the marines get to the end, simply because that is where he plans to have the great stand off.

When I play the invader, however, I plan on not letting them GET that far. There is no point holding off til the end, only to let them have it at the end. If you do that, they only have to trump you once. And when they do trump you, they win the game!

By playing all your cards earlier, forcing frags, using your resources, not only do you actually use the resources instead of discarding them, you actually harm them on the way. Do this enough and if they only trump you once, you've got plenty of time to recover, with enough resources to tie you over.

Another thing I was surprised at was the fact that you actually made it through the entire deck of cards - in my games I crush the marines long before then.

In your example above, when the trites had a chance to attack, you held back for the "perfect" opportunity, but forever after, the marines stood on the vents. It seems to me like that WAS the perfect time - because any time you can is the perfect time.

Another example of imperfect placement was the two zombies in area 5, where you placed them by the door. I would have placed them beside the cabinet. It can still be attacked by a chain gun, or a difficult ask for a shotgun, but it cannot be sweeped by a chainsaw, and further more, it MUST be encountered one at a time - unlike the placement by the door where you can kill one and slip past.
Further, on the other side of the door, the demon should have been backed up against the door to area 2 - because again, the guy could slip past and take the damage. If there's no way past, he is FORCED to advance instead of sprint. Thus, no red key. If he kills it and opens the door, he brings down hell. If he doesn't kill both, he dies. When he respawns 8 squares away, the invader has a chance to bring more invaders in.
 
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Mark Taraba
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Quote:
With that in mind, I positioned the Demons so that their narrow side was facing the Marine so that he could not blowthrough down their length.


I thought you couldn't use blowthrough to hit the same guy twice.
 
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Travis Hall
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My question about the walkthrough concerns readying and order counters. Several times in the scenario, marines give order counters to other marines. Is that allowed? Because the rulebook says you can give ammo and equipment counters to other marines, but I couldn't see anything about giving other marines orders. Also, that seems very non-intuitive, that a marine could effectively give up an action to allow another marine to take an extra action.
 
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R S
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Very Cool - Thanks alot!
 
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Dee Squared
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Wraith wrote:
My question about the walkthrough concerns readying and order counters. Several times in the scenario, marines give order counters to other marines. Is that allowed? Because the rulebook says you can give ammo and equipment counters to other marines, but I couldn't see anything about giving other marines orders. Also, that seems very non-intuitive, that a marine could effectively give up an action to allow another marine to take an extra action.


The "Tactician" card allows that marine to give an order to one of his comrades.
 
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Travis Hall
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DSquared wrote:
The "Tactician" card allows that marine to give an order to one of his comrades.

Ah, that explains it. We didn't draw that card in the one game I've played. Thanks.
 
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Christian Letourneau
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Mike,

Your walkthrough is amazing. At the end of the day, think of all of us who will read through it and learn some very subtle strategies about the game. I know I have and for that, your hard work is all the more appreciated.

I am saying this because there is no way you will win the naysayers of the game to your argument that the game is balanced. It's a losing battle and it was from the moment the challenge was made. I (and my group)for one very much enjoy the game as it is. I have stopped following the balance argument a long time ago as I found it pointless after a while. Each side has their opinion and know they are right and everybody else is wrong.

Just know that players in the silent...-let's call it minority so I don't start a whole thread on whether players that are silent are in the majority or in the minority-appreciate what you have done and will learn from it. Just know that and do not try to answer every critique thrown your way... You cannot win this one; but that doesn't mean that you are not right.

Christian.
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Damien Browne
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Duguayduguay wrote:
Mike,

Your walkthrough is amazing. At the end of the day, think of all of us who will read through it and learn some very subtle strategies about the game. I know I have and for that, your hard work is all the more appreciated.

I am saying this because there is no way you will win the naysayers of the game to your argument that the game is balanced. It's a losing battle and it was from the moment the challenge was made. I (and my group)for one very much enjoy the game as it is. I have stopped following the balance argument a long time ago as I found it pointless after a while. Each side has their opinion and know they are right and everybody else is wrong.

Just know that players in the silent...-let's call it minority so I don't start a whole thread on whether players that are silent are in the majority or in the minority-appreciate what you have done and will learn from it. Just know that and do not try to answer every critique thrown your way... You cannot win this one; but that doesn't mean that you are not right.

Christian.

I find myself partial to your comments. I take offense that you dictate to Mike that I am definitely not going to give ground on the discussion at hand. To say there is no way to 'win the naysayers' is a defeatist argument, and it belittles the intelligence not only of the naysayers but also Mike, because implicitly you state that he has not the intelligence to do so.

Yet in your same message, you also clearly state that Mike has enough intelligence to teach you a thing or two about this game!
(In effect, you belittle your own intelligence!)

To state that it is a losing battle from the start only expresses that you believe the arguments of the naysayers to be stronger than that of the defendants. Yet here you are explaining to Mike both telling him he is right, but that it isn't worth arguing for.

Lastly, you have declared your desire for Mike to not answer any critique made of his work. If that is Mike's intention, WHY DID HE PUT SO MUCH EFFORT IN?
If *I* put close to 40 hours of work (that's a WHOLE WEEK for some people - those with an eight hour working day!) into a project and somehow I can learn directly from the work that I did, then that is the profit I would make.

I personally have critiqued some of the information presented in Mike's presentation, in the form of questions (rather than accusations) and if Mike responds, then both he and I (and others, for our selflessness!) may learn more about playing this game well.
You however, feel justified in learning from the presentation (and I too realised one or two game possibilities) yet you wish to deny Mike that same privelege?
You yourself have said that the game is subtle, yet you refuse to take the learning as far as it can go.
THAT sounds like a closed mind to me. It has nothing to do with the 'naysayers'.
 
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Corvo
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I know I'm far from being a moderator...
...but I'd still like to urge everyone to stick to Mike's presentation, meaning: Aks questions about it and give answers about it.
For everything else always tends to clutter the real topic and turn into some trolling-flamy-topic, imho.



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taraba wrote:
Quote:
With that in mind, I positioned the Demons so that their narrow side was facing the Marine so that he could not blowthrough down their length.


I thought you couldn't use blowthrough to hit the same guy twice.



The rules state that:
- You target squares (possibly containing an invader)
- When using blowthrough, you cannot use the same target twice

Which means that an oversized invader (like a demon) can be targetted twice, as long as it is a different square which you have LOS with!
 
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Georgios P.
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Am I reading this wrong or are the 'naysayers' basically saying:
'When the invader plays a perfect game*, the marines have no chance of winning other than by sheer luck.'

Because I find it very difficult to think of a game, that does not come down to 'winning through sheer luck' when everybody involved plays a perfect game*.

* - because that's what it comes down to when one constantly criticizes people for not playing to the best of their abilities
 
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Dee Squared
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Joe Dizzy wrote:
Am I reading this wrong or are the 'naysayers' basically saying:
'When the invader plays a perfect game*, the marines have no chance of winning other than by sheer luck.'

Because I find it very difficult to think of a game, that does not come down to 'winning through sheer luck' when everybody involved plays a perfect game*.

* - because that's what it comes down to when one constantly criticizes people for not playing to the best of their abilities



You're reading it wrong. I'm not asking for a walkthrough where the Invader plays "perfectly". I'm asking for a walkthrough where the Invader merely plays competently.

Read bluebehir's post here again:


bluebehir wrote:
Apart from a couple mistakes you made with invader placement, my biggest beef with your handling of the invader's game was that you "held off til the end".

Effectively, your invader is LETTING the marines get to the end, simply because that is where he plans to have the great stand off.

When I play the invader, however, I plan on not letting them GET that far. There is no point holding off til the end, only to let them have it at the end. If you do that, they only have to trump you once. And when they do trump you, they win the game!


 
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Mike zebrowski
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I'm on a buisness trip right now, so I don't have the time to get into a debate over the various tactical and strategic choices. I was put up at a hotel that doesn't have internet access, so I am reduced to grabbing a few minutes here and there between meetings.

DSquared wrote:

You're reading it wrong. I'm not asking for a walkthrough where the Invader plays "perfectly". I'm asking for a walkthrough where the Invader merely plays competently.


I don't mind debating specific points; however, I do not appreciate the subpar and incompetent remarks. If you don't understand or like my style of play, that is one thing. But you are not adding anything to the debate by dismissing it as subpar or incompetent.

Anyone who disparages my Invader play from now on, will simply be ignored.

Dsquared will be ignored until he makes a public apology.

Mike Z
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Georgios P.
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Quote:
I'm not asking for a walkthrough where the Invader plays "perfectly". I'm asking for a walkthrough where the Invader merely plays competently.


Semantics.

 
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Vincent de Wildt
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First of all:
Many thanks for the hard work that has put into this walkthrough.

Although the rule has been discussed here already I really think the blow-through ability is misinterputted (or how do you write that?). The rules obviously state that the ability is about shooting another space adjacent (or even further if you have enough dice) to the first space you targetted. Therefor I dont think the rules mean to say that you may not attack the same space twice because thats already logical given the ability to shoot further along the squares. Also the rules about blow-through talk about "target space" all the time and when they mention that you may not attack the same "target" twice they dont mention the word "space", so i dont think the rules mean you cannot attack the same square twice but i think the rules mean the monster.

Is this being answered in a FAQ or something?
 
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