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Subject: A way that Denethor fits the theme rss

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Chris Parsons
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Ok, so Denethor running around Mirkwood doesn't exactly fit the LOTR theme.

There is a way through to explain it though: how about we think of him in a more abstract way? Perhaps having Denethor as one of your heroes means that he still sits in his tower, but you have his favour and help even though he's not physically present?

You could think of his three defence as an abstract form of "help from Gondor" in the form of nameless Gondorian reinforcements, or perhaps his farsightedness helping to divert your enemies, or special preparedness. His Response ability could be fairly abstract too: you could imagine him instructing the heroes in advance on what they might face (through crafty Palantir usage).

I've always thought of Steward of Gondor as "the favour of the Steward of Gondor" in any case (otherwise it just makes my skin crawl): perhaps this is a more specific form of that?

Ok, it's a stretch, but I prefer this to him hitching his skirts and hi-tailing it through a forest.
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Allan Clements
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I prefer to think that has a secret alter ego of "deneTHOR". Where he wields his mighty hammer to defend his allies!

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Mario Acanda
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I cringed when I saw Denethor as one of the heroes. I have never thought of Denethor as someone... How might I say it?... heroic. But, hey, some flavor must be sacrificed for the sake of having an interesting game.
 
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Jonathan Ramundi
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But...

I love Denethor.
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snailien
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I like playing Steward of Gondor on Eowyn while Denethor sits idly by. Shouldn't Steward of Gondor at least be in the same sphere as Denethor?
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Ryan Langewisch
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Personally, if they make heroes that are fun to play with, I could care less if they fit thematically.
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Paul Bach
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Since this takes place in the intervening years between the quest to Erebor and the Long-Expected Party, we can imagine Denethor as a younger man. He was described by Tolkien as a "proud man, tall, valiant, and more kingly than any man that had appeared in Gondor for many lives of men; and he was wise also, and far-sighted, and learned in lore." This was back 40-63 years before the main action in LotR. At that time Aragorn was questing away in Gondor and Rohan under the name Thorongil. (How long until we see a character with that name come into the game?) Furthermore, we can see how Tolkien's description places him in the Lore sphere rather than another sphere. At the time of LotR Aragorn is already 87 years old.
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Jason Hidahl
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And rather than him actually dying when his card sustains too much damage, he really just loses interest/sanity or something, eh?
 
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jakub praibis
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I find it more fit to look at things in a broader scheme than how they are being suggested in the flavour text. Rather than companions navigating a raft along the Anduin river, I see it as a group of influencing characters searching, scouting, questing in the area to undo evil there.
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Luke Stirling
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Legendary wrote:
Personally, if they make heroes that are fun to play with, I could care less if they fit thematically.

I'd thumb you to agree with the sentiment, but the pedant in me hates to see a mangled idiom.
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jakub praibis
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paralipsis wrote:
Legendary wrote:
Personally, if they make heroes that are fun to play with, I could care less if they fit thematically.

I'd thumb you to agree with the sentiment, but the pedant in me hates to see a mangled idiom.


As a pedant myself, I wondered if it were intentional.
 
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Daniel Guerra
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PaulRadagast wrote:
Since this takes place in the intervening years between the quest to Erebor and the Long-Expected Party, we can imagine Denethor as a younger man. He was described by Tolkien as a "proud man, tall, valiant, and more kingly than any man that had appeared in Gondor for many lives of men; and he was wise also, and far-sighted, and learned in lore." This was back 40-63 years before the main action in LotR. At that time Aragorn was questing away in Gondor and Rohan under the name Thorongil. (How long until we see a character with that name come into the game?) Furthermore, we can see how Tolkien's description places him in the Lore sphere rather than another sphere. At the time of LotR Aragorn is already 87 years old.


Well, then you run into the problem that if the setting is 40 - 63 years before the LOTR story then Eowyn , Theodred and many others in the game would not even be alive.whistle

 
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Chris Parsons
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PaulRadagast wrote:
Since this takes place in the intervening years between the quest to Erebor and the Long-Expected Party, we can imagine Denethor as a younger man.


I thought it was set in the 14 years between the Long-Expected Party and Frodo leaving the Shire with the ring...?
 
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Paul Bach
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ChrisMDP wrote:
PaulRadagast wrote:
Since this takes place in the intervening years between the quest to Erebor and the Long-Expected Party, we can imagine Denethor as a younger man.


I thought it was set in the 14 years between the Long-Expected Party and Frodo leaving the Shire with the ring...?


I stand corrected. I was thinking of that time frame even while writing the other one.

In the end my point was that if we allow that Eowyn would be a child during at least half of the time frame the game is set in, and by all accounts Beorn is dead, (IIRC, Grimbeorn is his grandson,) then we can allow ourselves to think of Denethor as being in his youth when he saw himself vying for favour against Thorongil, rather than just an old, crazed man, corrupted by Sauron through misuse of the Palantir.
 
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Steve Mackenzie
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Better they use existing characters (however unlikely) than just make some up to fill the decks in my opinion. I enjoy seeing all the familiar characters playing a role somewhere within the game.
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Tristan Hall
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Epicurean wrote:
Better they use existing characters (however unlikely) than just make some up to fill the decks in my opinion. I enjoy seeing all the familiar characters playing a role somewhere within the game.


Definitely.
If it said "Lord of the Rings" on the cover and then inside all you got was Ted the Dwarf, Ernie the Elf, and Bobby McBobson the Ranger I'd be rather upset. Albeit ever so briefly amused.
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ninjadorg wrote:
Epicurean wrote:
Better they use existing characters (however unlikely) than just make some up to fill the decks in my opinion. I enjoy seeing all the familiar characters playing a role somewhere within the game.


Definitely.
If it said "Lord of the Rings" on the cover and then inside all you got was Ted the Dwarf, Ernie the Elf, and Bobby McBobson the Ranger I'd be rather upset. Albeit ever so briefly amused.


yes indeed.. i just wish the QUEST/SCENARIO also reflect the LOTR storyline.. like from Journey from Rivendell to Pass of Caradras.. and Passage thru Moria..

there's lot of quest and battle scene in the books that can be expanded..

AFAIK there is no journey to MIRKWOOD by denethor or gimli...
 
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Allan Clements
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Well the point of the game is more a "what if", rather than a retelling, the game would not be much fun if the outcome was predetermined!
 
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Paul Bach
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Epicurean wrote:
Better they use existing characters (however unlikely) than just make some up to fill the decks in my opinion. I enjoy seeing all the familiar characters playing a role somewhere within the game.


I find it easiest to think of games played in familiar settings as alternate histories. If I expected them to conform to the source's vision/history, there would be no game to play because the outcome would be predetermined, and therefore no game to play.

IMO, the familiar characters are there to make the game accessible. I'm know them, I want to play as them. But the decision to set the game in those 17 years previous to the book is a good idea as well. I can more easily accept these quest without having to say "This isn't the way it happened," than rewriting the main storyline of the book.

As far as the characters are concerned, the trade off will always be between characters you know doing something they would never do, (Denethor, Bilbo,) or could never have done, (given contradiction with the Tale of Years,) and made up characters that might have done something off stage while Tolkien's characters were busy doing what we know they were doing.

I think the balance is about right. Yes, Denethor sitting in his chair seems out of place, but kooky things like that will happen when you take someone else's vision and try to make a game that can play out in myriad ways. "Aragorn can't die!!! He's supposed to become King in a couple of years!!!"
 
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Troy Adlington
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I actually think of Denethor the Same Way. His influence and reach is far.
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Ryan Hanson
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Nice, Chris. I pretty much agree. I've always viewed "Steward" as really the "favor of the Steward", as you say.

As for Denethor... yeah I've also thought about the more abstract "Denethor's support" and it can also work.

So I'm with you!
 
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Ryan Langewisch
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paralipsis wrote:
Legendary wrote:
Personally, if they make heroes that are fun to play with, I could care less if they fit thematically.

I'd thumb you to agree with the sentiment, but the pedant in me hates to see a mangled idiom.

Personally, I see the idiom working either way. If I "could" care less, I am acknowledging that there is a tiny slice of me that could support the subject, but I would not mind at all if I "cared less" than I already do. Wouldn't miss it at all.
 
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Luke Stirling
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Legendary wrote:
paralipsis wrote:
Legendary wrote:
Personally, if they make heroes that are fun to play with, I could care less if they fit thematically.

I'd thumb you to agree with the sentiment, but the pedant in me hates to see a mangled idiom.

Personally, I see the idiom working either way. If I "could" care less, I am acknowledging that there is a tiny slice of me that could support the subject, but I would not mind at all if I "cared less" than I already do. Wouldn't miss it at all.

I believe your logic has undergone some "enhanced interrogation" there, but at the very least you can have that thumb I owed you.
 
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dprijadi wrote:
AFAIK there is no journey to MIRKWOOD by denethor or gimli...


Cross out "Mirkwood" and replace with "Rivendell". Or THORSville. Fixed.
 
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