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Subject: Designer Notes rss

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David Gonzalez Rice
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DrakeStorm wrote:
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Having a game that gets used up, sure seems like a way to make money to me. If people are tired of buying collectible games or expansion after expansion, this seems like the next logical step - You have to rebuy the SAME game at some point if you want to play. Planned Obsolescence.

I usually sympathize with cynics, but I don't think it works in this context. So many people are put off by the "destruction" or "disposability" or "obsolescence" that Hasbro risks alienating lots of potential customers. That makes theirs a bold move.

Second, I think all the talk about this game being "destroyed" or "ruined" is a fundamental misunderstanding of the designer's concept. Lots of things we purchase and then break in, personalize, or modify: shoes, clothes, tools, sports equipment. But when my new kicks or my new skateboard have their characteristic scratches, scrapes and dings, I don't immediately regard them as "destroyed." They have months to years of good use in them. I WANT them that way.

I really don't see how Risk: Legacy represents a problem, especially in a gaming culture that regards new releases as "stale" within a year. But then, I'll still play the Star Trek VHS board game...and I consider myself lucky if I get to play any of my favorite games up to 12 plays.
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Brian McCormick
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I think BGG is just throwing a fit because Hasbro has a truly awesome concept on their hands and they're mad that Fantasy Flight or Rio Grand didn't pick it up first.

Hey, guess what: if you feel insecure about playing a game with "Risk" on the cover, or if you feel that your gaming group will mock you for playing such a game, then you need to get a new hobby!
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Aurendrosl wrote:
I think BGG is just throwing a fit because Hasbro has a truly awesome concept on their hands and they're mad that Fantasy Flight or Rio Grand didn't pick it up first.

Wow, you sure get it, don't you. shake

No one would be upset at all over the idea of permanently altering our copy of a game if another company came up with it.

We are all just a bunch of Hasbro-haters here. Yup, you sure got us pegged. whistle
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Aurendrosl wrote:
I think BGG is just throwing a fit because Hasbro has a truly awesome concept on their hands and they're mad that Fantasy Flight or Rio Grand didn't pick it up first.

Hey, guess what: if you feel insecure about playing a game with "Risk" on the cover, or if you feel that your gaming group will mock you for playing such a game, then you need to get a new hobby!

I don't think it's that at all. I think some people just don't desire to have a game that's also an art project. They won't buy the game, and life will go on.

I doubt it has anything to do with Hasbro, and more to do with people who desire to keep their games in perfect condition.
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Springheeledjack wrote:
Wow, you sure get it, don't you. shake

No one would be upset at all over the idea of permanently altering our copy of a game if another company came up with it.

We are all just a bunch of Hasbro-haters here. Yup, you sure got us pegged. whistle
No one threw such a big fuss when all of the Dominion clones came out. In fact, many of the BGGers who disliked Dominion were happy when Thunderstone, Nightfall, etc. hit the market.

I've seen fresh concepts come out before. I've seen people make positive, neutral, and negative comments about the concept itself. However, I've never seen people make such an angered stance against a game franchise (Risk) that they long-ago swore off.


chrisbender wrote:
I don't think it's that at all. I think some people just don't desire to have a game that's also an art project. They won't buy the game, and life will go on.

I doubt it has anything to do with Hasbro, and more to do with people who desire to keep their games in perfect condition.
If it has nothing to do with Hasbro, what's with the comments saying "Arg! Typical Hasbro! Always trying to milk its customers!"?
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Aurendrosl wrote:
If it has nothing to do with Hasbro, what's with the comments saying "Arg! Typical Hasbro! Always trying to milk its customers!"?

Because if Fantasy Flight came out with this game the comments would be "Arg! Typical Fantasy Flight! Always trying to milk it's customers!"
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chrisbender wrote:
Because if Fantasy Flight came out with this game the comments would be "Arg! Typical Fantasy Flight! Always trying to milk it's customers!"
Somehow I doubt that. When Fantasy Flight comes out with expansions - the closest correlation to this situation - I see almost universal excitement and praise.

And again, I do think the reaction is more based on the Risk franchise and Hasbro than on the concept itself. Why would people care what Hasbro does with Risk? Most of the people here (on their own admission) hate Risk and haven't played it in years. Why in the world would they care what Hasbro does with its franchises?

I'll repeat it: why do all you Risk-haters care so much about what Hasbro does with this game? Do you care that Sorry Sliders came out? Did you get up-in-arms when Scrabble Slam hit the store shelves? What about U-Build Monopoly (we can already see the concept of Risk Legacy here)? How about the various Clue versions? Heck, you folks were even fine with Battleship Galaxies (even though the concept is nothing unique). But NOW....now we have a unique concept, and people go bananas.

Like I said, I think it's a bit of jealousy. If Fantasy Flight or a "hobby" boardgame company came up with this idea, people would be very intrigued and very supportive. But because it's Risk and Hasbro, it is opposed.
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Springheeledjack wrote:
We are all just a bunch of Hasbro-haters here. Yup, you sure got us pegged. whistle

I don't think you are a Hasbro hater but based on your comments alone across all of the threads people might get that impression.

You're passionate about games, maybe you should try and become a play tester and shape games before they make it to market.



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Aurendrosl wrote:
chrisbender wrote:
Because if Fantasy Flight came out with this game the comments would be "Arg! Typical Fantasy Flight! Always trying to milk it's customers!"
Somehow I doubt that. When Fantasy Flight comes out with expansions - the closest correlation to this situation - I see almost universal excitement and praise.

And again, I do think the reaction is more based on the Risk franchise and Hasbro than on the concept itself. Why would people care what Hasbro does with Risk? Most of the people here (on their own admission) hate Risk and haven't played it in years. Why in the world would they care what Hasbro does with its franchises?

I'll repeat it: why do all you Risk-haters care so much about what Hasbro does with this game? Do you care that Sorry Sliders came out? Did you get up-in-arms when Scrabble Slam hit the store shelves? What about U-Build Monopoly (we can already see the concept of Risk Legacy here)? How about the various Clue versions? Heck, you folks were even fine with Battleship Galaxies (even though the concept is nothing unique). But NOW....now we have a unique concept, and people go bananas.

Like I said, I think it's a bit of jealousy. If Fantasy Flight or a "hobby" boardgame company came up with this idea, people would be very intrigued and very supportive. But because it's Risk and Hasbro, it is opposed.

WOW! You really don't get it. shake

It has nothing to do with Risk. I love Risk.

It has nothing to do with Hasbro. Don't like what they did with a few of my favorite games, but I still enjoy their products. For example, just bought Battleship Galaxies, and I love it.

It has nothing to do with expansions. I love well done expansions.

It has EVERYTHING to do with a game that requires you to make PERMANANT alterations to it. yuk

Can I make this any clearer for you, or do I have to draw you a customized map?
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The War Chief
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hahnarama wrote:
Springheeledjack wrote:
We are all just a bunch of Hasbro-haters here. Yup, you sure got us pegged. whistle

I don't think you are a Hasbro hater but based on your comments alone across all of the threads people might get that impression.

You're passionate about games, maybe you should try and become a play tester and shape games before they make it to market.

Been a playtester for Hasbro. Part of H.O.P. Testing team for Heroscape.

Been a Game Designer. Games I created are on the shelves in B&N as we speak.

And yes, I am very passionate about games.

Do I dislike what Hasbro has done in the past regarding Heroscape, Risk: Balance of Power, and Risk Express? You bet. yuk

Do I dislike the entire idea of making permanent alterations to my copy of a game so that the replay and resale/trade values are negatively impacted. BINGO!

But I do appreciate the politeness of your posting.

Thanks,
Jack
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Jake Waltier
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Springheeledjack wrote:
It has EVERYTHING to do with a game that requires you to make PERMANANT alterations to it. yuk
This game is not for them. This game is for me.
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Springheeledjack wrote:
Do I dislike the entire idea of making permanent alterations to my copy of a game so that the replay and resale/trade values are negatively impacted. BINGO!:D
I'm curious how you came to the conclusion that making permanent alterations to your copy of the game would negatively impact the replay value of this particular game, when it has been designed to build off just that? Could you please explain that?

Thanks!
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Springheeledjack wrote:
Do I dislike the entire idea of making permanent alterations to my copy of a game so that the replay and resale/trade values are negatively impacted. BINGO!
It's fine that you don't like the game concept. I have no problem with that. But why do you keep hanging around the Risk Legacy forums then? Are you trying to convince other people to dislike it also? Why not just move on to something else that you do like?
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HasJim wrote:
Springheeledjack wrote:
Do I dislike the entire idea of making permanent alterations to my copy of a game so that the replay and resale/trade values are negatively impacted. BINGO!
I'm curious how you came to the conclusion that making permanent alterations to your copy of the game would negatively impact the replay value of this particular game, when it has been designed to build off just that? Could you please explain that?

Thanks!

One of the first things I thought of is the trade value going down once tons of stickers are applied. I think of it this way: If I put stickers all over my other copy of RISK, I don't think anyone would want it... Now, I don't know much about the game, nor how playable it is once all 15 sessions are finished, but I would raise an eyebrow if someone was trading a copy with their buddies names written all over it and some random country was named "Superfunplace" (best name for a country ever, BTW).
of course, that isn't going to stop me from buying it though. whistle
 
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Wow. Question though.

Does this game/system demand that the same players come back to it and/or come back with the same player count?


If that's the case it won't do well in my collection.
 
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Gary H
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I so very seldom purchase a game with the thought of what will be the resale value of said game. I'm getting a game to play and hopefully always keep in my collection.

With Risk: Legacy, I'm *specifically* getting it to play. If the game becomes customized and the meta-game continues game after game on the same board, it would be a game that those I game with will enjoy.

I guess it won't be for everyone...no game is. If the game costs me $35 and I play it three times and it's realized the game doesn't really hold water, well, honestly, it's only $35. I don't mean to sound flip, as the economy sucks and many of us are struggling, but it's not much in the scheme of things. If it does harm you in not being able to re-sell, perhaps you should be using your $35 in more productive ways than games, then.
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I understand that trading is a big part of some boardgamers' hobby, but not all boardgamers care about trading. Just like not all boardgamers' care about deckbuilding, which is why the new LotR co-op card game doesn't include multiples of every card, even though the vocal minority cries about it.

When I buy a boardgame, I do it with the assumption that it is mine and that I'm keeping it. I trade only in those rare circumstances when a boardgame ends up being totally disappointing. Unlike a lot of BGGers, I've played every single game in my collection. But that's partially because my collection doesn't have 200+ games.

I buy games that I intend to keep and to play. I only "collect" in the sense that I don't throw out old boardgames that I do not play as often as I used to. But I only buy games when I'm actually going to play them. I buy different boardgames because - in essense - I actually do want the rules to change. I can't transform Agricola into a game it is not, so I am forced to buy a new game in order to "change the rules", in a roundabout sort of way. At least Risk Legacy has the balls to say "oh, you're going to be keeping me, not trading me? Well then, let's make this interesting..."
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Lee Fisher
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For the record

RobDaviau wrote:
Retail is $55 to $60
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I grew up playing Risk, I still play it online (globalcombat.com) and on my android (landrule). I know it is just as much chance as it is strategy, but I love it.

I am really looking forward to starting a new series of Risk Games with my Brother and a best friend from childhood to bring back all the old rivalries.
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FaydeShift wrote:
One of the first things I thought of is the trade value going down once tons of stickers are applied. I think of it this way: If I put stickers all over my other copy of RISK, I don't think anyone would want it... Now, I don't know much about the game, nor how playable it is once all 15 sessions are finished, but I would raise an eyebrow if someone was trading a copy with their buddies names written all over it and some random country was named "Superfunplace" (best name for a country ever, BTW).
First, I don't buy games based on their projected trade value; I buy them based on how much I think I'll enjoy playing them. Second, whether an individual's used copy would increase or decrease the value would probably depend on the individual.

Remember Sid Sackson's private game collection? How much might Rob Daviau's copy go for some day? How about Michael Barnes, or Mike Siggins, or Alan Moon? I bet a personal copy played by of one of those guys would fetch a higher price at auction than a shrinkwrap copy. Maybe I better buy six of these, so I can cash in if there's ever a demand for autographed 'Sphere' copies!

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Though you're not who I was directing the question at, I appreciate the time you took to reply.

However, you are talking about the tradability or resale value of the game, while I was specifically asking about the replay value, as mentioned by Springheeledjack (Ive bolded that in my quote below.),

FaydeShift wrote:
HasJim wrote:
Springheeledjack wrote:
Do I dislike the entire idea of making permanent alterations to my copy of a game so that the replay and resale/trade values are negatively impacted. BINGO!:D
I'm curious how you came to the conclusion that making permanent alterations to your copy of the game would negatively impact the replay value of this particular game, when it has been designed to build off just that? Could you please explain that?

Thanks!

One of the first things I thought of is the trade value going down once tons of stickers are applied. I think of it this way: If I put stickers all over my other copy of RISK, I don't think anyone would want it... Now, I don't know much about the game, nor how playable it is once all 15 sessions are finished, but I would raise an eyebrow if someone was trading a copy with their buddies names written all over it and some random country was named "Superfunplace" (best name for a country ever, BTW).
of course, that isn't going to stop me from buying it though. :whistle:
 
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Springheeledjack wrote:
hahnarama wrote:
Springheeledjack wrote:
We are all just a bunch of Hasbro-haters here. Yup, you sure got us pegged. whistle

I don't think you are a Hasbro hater but based on your comments alone across all of the threads people might get that impression.

You're passionate about games, maybe you should try and become a play tester and shape games before they make it to market.

Been a playtester for Hasbro. Part of H.O.P. Testing team for Heroscape.

Been a Game Designer. Games I created are on the shelves in B&N as we speak.

And yes, I am very passionate about games.

Do I dislike what Hasbro has done in the past regarding Heroscape, Risk: Balance of Power, and Risk Express? You bet. yuk

Do I dislike the entire idea of making permanent alterations to my copy of a game so that the replay and resale/trade values are negatively impacted. BINGO!

But I do appreciate the politeness of your posting.

Thanks,
Jack

Shouldn't that read "game I created"?

I went looking to see what you'd done and found a fairly simple (though according to Tom Vasel "fun") word game.

That you made six years ago with a few expansions you made four years ago.

If you had created more than one game, or if you were still creating games, or if the one game you'd created had just been released - you'd have some credibility still.

Instead you come across as someone trying to puff himself up to cow your detractors.

You say you don't have anything against Hasbro, yet you keep bringing them up and bashing on them.

Instead of trying to trash the scene of people getting excited about a game, why don't you make your game designer badge mean something and turn it into present tense instead of past.
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This will be a heavily houseruled copy of Risk. Except that these houserules came from a logical progression of events, and these houserules have their own history. Ultimately, at the end of the campaign, players will have a unique copy of basic Risk. Maybe it will play similarly to Risk 2210. Maybe it will be like vanilla Risk with a few crossed-off areas. Maybe it will be utterly unlike any boardgame you've ever played.

However, let's consider the alternative: Hasbro could be launching yet another Risk spin-off and choosing the specific rules and specific restrictions by which you must abide. Instead, in Risk Legacy they are letting players choose the eventual design of the game.

I am excited for this concept because it is opening a door. The Fantasy Flight "living card games" opened a door for me, allowing me to play customizable card games without the random booster-pack element. Boardgames have all sorts of expansions, allowing me to get more out of the game I already own. I don't know what boardgame(s) popularized the expansion model, but the expansion model opened a different door. Dominion's method of expansions (copied by the other deckbuilders out there) has also left its own unique stamp on the boardgaming hobby. Dominion opened yet another door.

Risk Legacy is opening a new door. Maybe subsequent "evolving" games will have some sort of reset button, or maybe they'll be a different genre than Risk. Maybe we can finally have a halfway decent non-GM, non-dungeon-crawl RPG in boardgame-ish format. Either which way, I'm excited about the possibilities.

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If everyone, whether they like the game or not, could be nice to each other, that would be kind of cool.

Rip or praise the game all you want but let's remember that we're all gamers here who care a lot about games. That makes us more the same than not.

Thanks.

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Jake Waltier
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Wind Lane wrote:


Shouldn't that read "game I created"?

I went looking to see what you'd done and found a fairly simple (though according to Tom Vasel "fun") word game.

That you made six years ago with a few expansions you made four years ago.

If you had created more than one game, or if you were still creating games, or if the one game you'd created had just been released - you'd have some credibility still.

Instead you come across as someone trying to puff himself up to cow your detractors.

You say you don't have anything against Hasbro, yet you keep bringing them up and bashing on them.

Instead of trying to trash the scene of people getting excited about a game, why don't you make your game designer badge mean something and turn it into present tense instead of past.
I really don't think this post is helpful or has made anyone's day better.
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