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Subject: Designer Notes rss

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Danny Frahm
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chrisbender wrote:
navajas wrote:
Hell, that's even before considering that the base game: sucks. And I mean, hell of the upside down sinners horrible. All the stickers and card scissors in the world can't help this title if it's all just perfume on the roll five dice and hope for sixes pig that is Risk.

Have you played with the new revised rules? It's a lot of fun, but still requires rolling higher numbers on dice than your opponent. I would assume that mechanic still exists, or it wouldn't be Risk.

What are the new revised rules? I'm not exactly a risk fan as I pretty much play that game on autopilot. I just run through my internal AI script and push through to a safe win. Has the fundamentals changed in revised versions?
 
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Danny Frahm
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The concept is exciting and new. I like the idea because it will probably encourage you to come back and play the altered map.

I guess I'm hesitant because its "risk". I just don't find that game to be mentally stimulating. You basically play it the same way everytime. I don't really make decisions I just run through an internal AI script.

Hopefully cards and permanent alterations to the landscape will add strategic value. If so, if there is another layer of decision making, then I might buy.
 
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lfisher wrote:
Ender Wiggin wrote:
Any talk of a potential release date? Are we looking at sometime before the end of 2011? I love this permanent change/evolution mechanic and can't wait to get my hands on it.

Rob said
It SHOULD be out in Germany at Essen in October and in the US in Nov/Dec. My guess is December. But I'm the designer so that is a guess.

If this hits the US shelves in late November / early December, then many people around the globe will be missing this for Xmas. Mail is a pain that time of the year
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Chris Bender
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FinalAttack wrote:
chrisbender wrote:
navajas wrote:
Hell, that's even before considering that the base game: sucks. And I mean, hell of the upside down sinners horrible. All the stickers and card scissors in the world can't help this title if it's all just perfume on the roll five dice and hope for sixes pig that is Risk.

Have you played with the new revised rules? It's a lot of fun, but still requires rolling higher numbers on dice than your opponent. I would assume that mechanic still exists, or it wouldn't be Risk.

What are the new revised rules? I'm not exactly a risk fan as I pretty much play that game on autopilot. I just run through my internal AI script and push through to a safe win. Has the fundamentals changed in revised versions?

Yes, they have made the game much more fun to play. I had given up on the original rules long ago, but the revised rules have rekindled my interest in the game. I'll try to explain the new rules best I can off the top of my head.

The rules for winning the game have changed. At the beginning of the game you draw some "objectives". Objectives are little goals to accomplish, like take over a continent or something. When a player completes an objective he takes the card, making it unavailable to be claimed by the other players. Once someone has claimed their third objective they win.

You still trade in cards to get bonus armies, but the amount of armies you receive are more consistent, no more getting huge amounts of armies late in the game.

The game plays a lot faster, about 90 minutes. It's quick and brutal, but a lot of fun. Much of the game remains the same, but they "fixed" it.

I haven't played in a year or so, so my recollection of the rules could be rusty.
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Kim Fjeld
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This is really interesting! meeple I've fiddled for a while with the notion of how a game could "evolve" during the course of the game. It would all boil down to the decision making of each player, but wether this interaction would affect the rules, the mechanics or the other players level of interaction possibilities was not yet decided upon.

This game is already leaps ahead of my notion. Not just that; it has already manifested itself into a playable game! I look forward to add this one to my collection.

I hope evolving games will be the new rapture in in a way the introduction of eurogames was.
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Doug Buel
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I'm all over this. I can't wait to see it.
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Dan Edwards
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This idea is a hoot. I like it.

It really is a stun grenade tossed in the lap of the card sleeved, laminated and largely conservative world of gaming. Well, the fastidious Felix Unger players can console themselves by removing and preserving the sleeve before the card is ripped up by the grinning Oscar Madisons of the gaming public.

As a Grognard, I'm fascinated. My games of choice feature carefully researched forces and settings, meant to duplicate history as exactly as possible...so that the course of the battle, campaign or war may be changed by the players within acceptable parameters that allow a suspension of disbelief.

Grogs demand that the 11Oth Regiment be in it's proper place before the latest Bulge game starts, but if it holds out longer or melts away sooner than the real Regiment did, we are OK with that...as long as it doesn't defeat entire German Panzer Divisions, because that's not plausible.

Yeah, we change history...but once the battle is won or lost, the reset button must be pressed.

For years I've heard wargamers joke about how the pain and suffering of actual battle might be dimly replicated by throwing away the counters in "the dead pile". Nobody meant it seriously.

Glad to see that somebody finally does. Good luck!
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Sean McDonald
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I think something was either overlooked here (or intentionally ignored). In general, consumer items that have a lasting change also have a reset button.

Would you buy a computer that everything done on it could not be undone? You probably wouldn't. I understand what you are trying to do here. You want the decisions to be meaningful, but you perhaps should have explored methods that allow for hard reset if necessary.

This game has an expiration date. It could be when the map is so unbalanced no one want to play anymore, it could be when you run out of stickers, it could be when people weren't careful enough placing them and things look all f'd up. But at some point it is no longer playable. I have played the same set of Risk with my nephew that my dad played with me when I was a kid. No one will ever say that about this game. (Sure, it can be extended with extra sticker packs, or replacement boards, but only for as long as you are committed to continue printing them ... and we are willing to shell out money for them).

On a less logistical and more personal opinion point. There is something relaxing in the fact that a board game will reset when its done. I can just play and have fun. I spend all day making decisions that are final and have consequences. I deal with the stress of costing my company $$$$$ for every wrong choice I make. I don't really want that in my off time. I don't want to have to think, crap, now its going to take 2-3 crappy plays before the game is fun again.
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DropDeadCriminal wrote:
I think something was either overlooked here (or intentionally ignored). In general, consumer items that have a lasting change also have a reset button.

Plenty don't. You can modify your car with aftermarket stuff to the point where it's impossible to return it to an off-the-assembly-line state.

Quote:
This game has an expiration date. It could be when the map is so unbalanced no one want to play anymore, it could be when you run out of stickers, it could be when people weren't careful enough placing them and things look all f'd up. But at some point it is no longer playable.

No more so than any other game. At some point the game will stop evolving; at that point you can still play the map as it is. Concerns about balance or aesthetics are speculation at this point.

Quote:
On a less logistical and more personal opinion point. There is something relaxing in the fact that a board game will reset when its done. I can just play and have fun. I spend all day making decisions that are final and have consequences. I deal with the stress of costing my company $$$$$ for every wrong choice I make. I don't really want that in my off time. I don't want to have to think, crap, now its going to take 2-3 crappy plays before the game is fun again.

Sounds like this game isn't for you. I'm looking forward to it though.
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Clay Hales
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DropDeadCriminal wrote:
This game has an expiration date. It could be when the map is so unbalanced no one want to play anymore, it could be when you run out of stickers, it could be when people weren't careful enough placing them and things look all f'd up. But at some point it is no longer playable. I have played the same set of Risk with my nephew that my dad played with me when I was a kid. No one will ever say that about this game. (Sure, it can be extended with extra sticker packs, or replacement boards, but only for as long as you are committed to continue printing them ... and we are willing to shell out money for them).
This is not only wild speculation, it is unbridled pessimism. Your statement implies understanding of what the sealed portions of the game contain, their implications on game play, and how thorough play testing was or was not. On each count you are suggesting a worst case scenario. The people actually in the know, while understandably biased, indicate that it is anything but a worst case scenario.
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Kim Fjeld
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DropDeadCriminal wrote:
This game has an expiration date.

I will actually give you credit for your scepticism. There's absolutely nothing wrong with ambivalence, because in the end critique will only make the designer provide us with a stronger case for his actual idea behind the gameplay.

I would also like to know designers reflections about both the replayability and the newplayability of this game: How does the gameplay deal with any new players or an entirely new game cast, or is the game most suited to be played by the same group over and over again?

I would like to hear Rob's remarks to this, without any spoilers. meeple
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Lee Fisher
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pocoloco wrote:
DropDeadCriminal wrote:
This game has an expiration date.

I will actually give you credit for your scepticism. There's absolutely nothing wrong with ambivalence, because in the end critique will only make the designer provide us with a stronger case for his actual idea behind the gameplay.

I would also like to know designers reflections about both the replayability and the newplayability of this game: How does the gameplay deal with any new players or an entirely new game cast, or is the game most suited to be played by the same group over and over again?

I would like to hear Rob's remarks to this, without any spoilers. meeple

I think Rob has answered most of those questions. (new players were not a big deal, but entirely new is not ideal... (from what I remember)).
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Rob Daviau
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Yeah, that pretty much sums it up. The game narrative and shared history obviously works better the more there is a common group. Not necessarily an exact same group, but most of the same people playing most of the time.

The game itself should fit in new players fine. They just are coming in to the middle of the movie. They'll need some explanation.

Keep in mind that the ruleset starts out very stripped down and builds as the games go on. So bringing someone into game 17 would require more explanation than someone joining game 3.
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James Buchanan
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I know one thing for sure. It's impossible to destroy Risk. Anything you can do to it will make it better.

I'm really looking forward to this. Now I can target my roommate from the begging of game 2 and have ample in-game justification (assuming he wins game 1).
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Sean McDonald
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RobDaviau wrote:
Yeah, that pretty much sums it up. The game narrative and shared history obviously works better the more there is a common group. Not necessarily an exact same group, but most of the same people playing most of the time.

The game itself should fit in new players fine. They just are coming in to the middle of the movie. They'll need some explanation.

Keep in mind that the ruleset starts out very stripped down and builds as the games go on. So bringing someone into game 17 would require more explanation than someone joining game 3.

That makes things a little more clear. It is more of a game you can only play 1 time but has a large number of sessions. Looking at it that way does make it a bit more appealing.

I still think map/sticker packs should be sold for it. If I do want to start up with a new group it would be nice not to have to re-buy the whole game.
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jefF, There are some who call me... DuneKitteh
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FaydeShift wrote:

One of the first things I thought of is the trade value going down once tons of stickers are applied. I think of it this way: If I put stickers all over my other copy of RISK, I don't think anyone would want it... Now, I don't know much about the game, nor how playable it is once all 15 sessions are finished, but I would raise an eyebrow if someone was trading a copy with their buddies names written all over it and some random country was named "Superfunplace" (best name for a country ever, BTW).
of course, that isn't going to stop me from buying it though. whistle

Believe it or not, some of us would want it. While it's true that I probably wouldn't trade at SRP value for it, as someone that would want the plastic, and could/might/would re-use the board as a backing board for a prototype or some such, I would definitely trade for (or buy straight out) a well used copy or three. Just sayin'
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Ian McCarthy
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midnightmadness wrote:
FaydeShift wrote:

One of the first things I thought of is the trade value going down once tons of stickers are applied. I think of it this way: If I put stickers all over my other copy of RISK, I don't think anyone would want it... Now, I don't know much about the game, nor how playable it is once all 15 sessions are finished, but I would raise an eyebrow if someone was trading a copy with their buddies names written all over it and some random country was named "Superfunplace" (best name for a country ever, BTW).
of course, that isn't going to stop me from buying it though. whistle

Believe it or not, some of us would want it. While it's true that I probably wouldn't trade at SRP value for it, as someone that would want the plastic, and could/might/would re-use the board as a backing board for a prototype or some such, I would definitely trade for (or buy straight out) a well used copy or three. Just sayin'

I can't wait to start seeing used copies at thrift stores!
 
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I would have LOVED to have been a fly on the wall when these guys first came up with this idea, when someone first said out loud "hey guys, what do you think of this?"
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Jerry Alan Sayers
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Ghorro wrote:
I'm thrilled about this game, the idea is fantastic. But, is the core still Risk? Have the rules been tweaked to (initially) make it a better game? Base Risk is just .... not good.

No, what ruined Risk was moving away from the very original base of the rules: dealing cards at random and putting one army on each territory your cards showed. Letting people start with more armies than that and just turtle up--that ruined the game. If you turtle up under the original rules, you die.

I love Risk, and find it fast and exciting when it played that way. It's not my favourite game, but it's something fast and light to play a few times some nights with my friends. I really look forward to this, though, even if I am still a tiny bit uncomfortable drawing all over it.
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Springheeledjack wrote:

an I make this any clearer for you, or do I have to draw you a customized map?

I am afraid you will have to use a pre-printed map for us; you should not draw on a pristine piece of paper.

 
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jadusty wrote:
Springheeledjack wrote:

an I make this any clearer for you, or do I have to draw you a customized map?

I am afraid you will have to use a pre-printed map for us; you should not draw on a pristine piece of paper.


Sorry. My industrial sized printer is on the fritz. It's a hand-drawn map, or nothin at all.
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Chris No
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RobDaviau wrote:
I love this site.

We suspected this game would provoke conversation but certainly not this much this fast. It has been enjoyable reading it all. I wanted to take a moment and try to address some big themes that I’ve seen emerging.

WHY PERMANENT?
The design started with an attempt to make a game decision matter, to up the ante, to maybe make you sweat a bit before you do something. We all make plenty of decisions every day. Many are meaningless. Some stay with us forever. We all have the girl (or boy) who got away, the job we should or shouldn’t have taken, the night out that ended badly, the girl (or boy) we should’ve let get away. We can move on from these or try to atone or learn from them or even enjoy who we are because of them, but there’s one thing we can’t do: we can’t take them back. There are no do overs in life. Some decisions just make you who you are.

This led us to wondering why games always have to reset. Why are they a medium that always goes back to start? Movies and books are static forms of entertainment meant to be viewed but not altered. Games, by nature, demand that the user create the experience. We wanted to push that boundary to have lasting effects. Now you really create the experience. This game is not art to be hung on a wall but a leather jacket to be worn around until it has its own unique story.

It is one thing to play a card in a game to gain an advantage. It is entirely different to play a card and then rip it up, banning it from the game forever (I know that none of you will actually rip it up). Or to mark a territory that will change its destiny from here on out. It’s a different decision process. How important is that card now? Will it be more important in a future game? Will you have it then? Is this the time? Is it worth it?

We knew there would be a continuum of opinions of this. We revere games. Marking them in any way has been ingrained into us as “ruining” them. We sleeve cards and preserve blister packs. We wipe our hands fastidiously and ban soda from the table.

Some will find this game liberating. Others a horror. Many will sit on the sidelines.

Of course, you can fake it and give yourself the way back. The undo. The temporary work around. It’s not hard to do that.

What is hard is to put that first sticker on the board and realize that it’ll be there forever.


WHY RISK?
Risk itself is a game where nothing happens by accident. You don’t accidentally take over South America from your friend. You don’t accidentally drive your brother from the game. It involves choices. And few people approach a Risk game without having the preamble of discussing past betrayals, of alliances broken, of tactics favored by the victorious (some may call them lucky and curse the dice). It seemed odd that the world was a mute accomplice to this meta game. It wouldn’t respond to repeated betrayals. But it seemed like a good game to make respond.

WHAT IF I BREAK MY WORLD?
We hope you won’t. We tried to. The decisions you make are, for the most part, a series of micro decisions, that add up to some big influence on the feel and history of your game. It would be practically impossible for any one decision to break it.

But there are certainly decisions that will tilt it in one person’s favor. It would be a mistake to sit down for game 7 of this game and think that all the players are on equal footing. There will be imbalance. If one person has gotten early control over the game system, it is up to the other players to band together to equalize things. These games are about a series of asymmetrical challenges.

If every time you played Risk with your friend and your brother, you and your brother chose to fight, your friend would win. This game will be no different but, in addition, this world will grow to reflect this, giving your friend more and more power. Will you break your habit of fighting your brother to overthrow the now-entrenched friend (put in power by your own inability to change your habits) or will this world's history record that a tyrant ruled the land because of two brothers unable, or unwilling, to find peace when the world demanded they do so?

So be patient. History is lengthy. There will likely be moments that will make you think, “well now it’s all out of whack”. But wait to open up the sealed parts of the game. They add quite a few twists and turns that will pull the game back on track.

We wanted your experience in your world to be as dynamic and unbelievable and fascinating as real world history. History never plods along at a predictable pace. It surprises us at all times.

WHAT IS UP WITH THE SEALED STUFF?
Not much has been made of them. They are the other new twist on the game. This is actually a game with spoilers. Actual things that will make you think on your feet.

We’re going to ask reviewers not to talk about the hidden contents. I guess I’m asking all of you to be careful with this as well. Some are small things. Some bigger. Will the game work if you know everything that is going to happen? Yes. You can certainly go back and watch The Sixth Sense again. But that first time you saw it? That was special.

So if you are a person that really likes game with complete information? Read the spoilers.
Those of you who like your games a little bit more white knuckled and adventuresome? Avoid spoilers.

ISN’T THIS JUST RISK WITH STICKERS?
Hope not. But note that the first few games are fast and light. This is on purpose. You are setting the stage and creating the early history of your world. The focus of those games is getting used to changing things. We wanted all the attention on that, not on new rules. But, by the end of the evolution? There will be a LOT going on. Lot more strategy and rules and decision making.

I just wanted to let you know that I recently purchased Risk Legacy. Four of my good friends and I started playing a week ago and last night got through our fifth game.

Games one-four were awesome for everyone playing. Everyone was really excited to see what might happen next. Different events kept unfolding changing the fabric of the world we played in. So far we couldn't wait to continue playing through our 15 games.

**Warning below contains major game spoilers, stop reading if you haven't played this game and don't want parts of it spoiled**

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Then we came to game five.....this game we hit the "Use three missiles in the same combat roll" unlock and opened that part of the game up. We were excited at first when we saw a mutant faction card and troops, but then completely confused.

When we read through the "War Progresses" cards it all related to an alien race we knew nothing about. After about 5 minutes we realized that the deck of cards packaged in our "Mutant Faction" container was the wrong deck. At this point we had to open the "Place 30+ troops plus have a missile" unlock to see if the correct deck was in there. Luckily the mutant deck was in the other container, but now from this point on a huge part of the game has been spoiled for us. There is no guessing what is in that other big container. I hope this in an isolated incident and if it isn't that you can figure out all which game boxes have this issue.

In summary we all still love the game and how it works, but I and my four friends are very very disappointed that a packaging error forced us to spoil what looked like a huge part of the game. Now every game until it happens will be, "Hrmm, do I unlock the aliens now or wait until later".

Thanks for your time and a great game.
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Rockox wrote:
I would have LOVED to have been a fly on the wall when these guys first came up with this idea, when someone first said out loud "hey guys, what do you think of this?"

"Cha-ching"
 
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RogMcK wrote:
Rockox wrote:
I would have LOVED to have been a fly on the wall when these guys first came up with this idea, when someone first said out loud "hey guys, what do you think of this?"

"Cha-ching"

You have no idea how an economy, sales, marketing, or anything like that works, do you?
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Wind Lane wrote:
RogMcK wrote:
Rockox wrote:
I would have LOVED to have been a fly on the wall when these guys first came up with this idea, when someone first said out loud "hey guys, what do you think of this?"

"Cha-ching"

You have no idea how an economy, sales, marketing, or anything like that works, do you?

Step 1 : Make Game
Step 3 : Make Profit
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