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Subject: Suez Crisis rss

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Patrick Pence
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Looked around for this in these forums and on CSW, but couldn't find a ruling. I always thought this was pretty easy to interpret, but my current ladder game has given me pause.

Suez Crisis* (USSR)
"Remove a total of four US Influence from France, the United Kingdom and Israel. Remove no more than 2 Influence per country."

I've always interpreted the AND on this card to require that at least one influence must be taken from all the countries involved in the Crisis, if possible. One of them must have two taken away to fulfill the total of 4 IP. The Vassal module also enforces this interpretation.

Since it does not use 'OR', I didn't think it was possible to remove, say, 2 from France and 2 from Israel, ignoring the UK if there are influence points in there.

What is the intended interpretation of this?
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Daniel Dunbring
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The intended interpretation is that the USSR player have choice of removing 0, 1 or 2 influence (in any combination) from those three countries. In total - you can remove 4 influence at most.

So your old interpretation is wrong, Im afraid. There is no requirement at all of splitting the taking evenly - the AND simply means that you have another country to choose from if you wish.
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Patrick Pence
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If that were the case, why not just use an OR statement on the card? Then the clarification of 'no more that 2 per country' would be appropriate.

An OR is used on the Independant Reds cards to indicate an individual selection from a range of choices: "Add sufficient US influence in Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Yugoslavia, or Romania to equal USSR influence."


 
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Michael Kiefte
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Farsol wrote:
The Vassal module also enforces this interpretation.


Not the one that I'm familiar with!

The and on the card implies and/or. You can make any combination up to 4 IPs, up to two per country.
 
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mateenyweeny
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"or" would not be appropriate as it would indicate that only one Country could be selected (therefore and/or would also not work).
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Patrick Pence
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Michael-

Here is a screenshot from version 2.5 of the Vassal module, which automates the reduction when the Event is triggered.

 
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Tim Schwarz
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The "and" means that the pool from which four influence is taken is the group UK, France, Israel. I've always played that 2 UK + 2 France was a legal move.

Can't explain the Vassal interpretation, and I think it's wrong.
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Patrick Pence
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Tim-

I certainly understand the way that people are reading the AND statement.

I think my deeper point is the 'spirit', or historical context, of what the card is meant to represent. The Suez Crisis dragged all three of the listed countries into a severe face-saving dance from pressures by Eisenhower and the UN over the offensive.

So, I read the card to mean that all three of the allies suffered some loss of US backing due to the reaction to Israel's actions in Egypt, hence the reason that all three should be made to give up at least one influence as a result.

 
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mateenyweeny
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What would you say if those three countries didn't have more than 3 total US influence in them? Is the card unplayable?
 
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Patrick Pence
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We've always played that if one country (ex. France) has no US influence, then one of the other two loses 2, and 1 from the final. Every effort is made to remove a total of four. If only one country has any influence, it loses two.

That's also one of the incentives to not put early influence in France, and to make sure that Israel has enough to cover in case it would lose 2, or else the US doesn't have anything adjacent to rebuild from.
 
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Dave Rubin
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"It may be doubted whether so small a number of men ever employed so short a space of time with greater or more lasting effects upon the history of the world.” — Sir George Otto Trevelyan on the Battles of Trenton and Princeton
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VASSAL modules' rules interpretations are not vetted by GMT. The programming error is in no way official.

P.S. On CSW, try http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?13@628.Zl4BcIsiFCJ.34@.1dcf...
 
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Patrick Pence
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Dave-

That's precisely the issue being discussed here- albeit 5 years later than their discussion.

To be fair, however, there was only one (snarky) response opinion posted by Allen Doum, and that wasn't corroborated by anyone else. Jason posted soon after, but didn't mention that discussion.

In my current game, it will occur in the 2 and 2 method. I'm interested in should it be interpreted that way.

In six years of playing, the lack of discussion leads me to believe that there are two camps- both playing it entirely differently- one correctly and one incorrectly.

 
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Marco Poutré
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Never ceases to amaze me how thousands of TS games might be played around the world with this ruling going either way. We're not talking about an obscure Late War card combination, it's a pretty powerful Early War card.

If it helps in any way, wargameroom.com implements this like you can remove 2 from one country and 2 from one other (Even if the 3rd one has influence in it).
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Jason Matthews
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Yep, the gang has it correct, collectively. The "and" is used to indicate that it may come from any of the three. Had we meant from all three, we would have used "each" or some other such indicator.
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Patrick Pence
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Thanks, Jason. Nice to still be learning new things about the game.
 
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Dave Rubin
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Patrick: it's moot, but at the time, questions were being asked with great frequency on CSW, and those who knew the game freely answered questions, with Jason (or, more rarely, Anand) responding only when an incorrect answer was given.

Marco: Bruce Wigdor, who programs wargameroom, is extremely thorough in doing so. Unlike VASSAL, if a wargameroom module interprets a rule a certain way, it is very likely correct.
 
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Michael Kiefte
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Farsol wrote:
Michael-

Here is a screenshot from version 2.5 of the Vassal module, which automates the reduction when the Event is triggered.



Ah. That would be the old module.
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Patrick Pence
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But I like the old module...

Admittedly, though, I'm using the Excel spreadsheet more than anything nowadays.
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