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Subject: Set of rules clarifications/modifications rss

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Thibaut Palfer-Sollier
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I'm facing many questions on Tric-Trac now that Glory to Rome has been released in France. Along with the discussion on promo cards, it made me realize that many rules are implicit or not clear. Here are some proposals to solve most of the issues raised in the process :

1 : Actions are never mandatory and never condition the possibility to perform subsequent actions.

Not clearly stated as is. Removes the need for the constant clarification on the “In addition” buildings.
Example if you have a Bar and an Aqueduct when leading/following Patron with multiple Patron clients :
- You can choose not to perform any Patron action even though you led/followed it
- You can choose not to use any of your Patron clients
- You can choose not to use the Bar or the Aqueduct as they don't explicitly force you to do so
- You don't have to perform the standard Patron from the pool to perform the “Bar” Patron or the “Aqueduct” Patron


2 : When performing one instance of a given role, you can apply all the actions related to the role in any order. However, you cannot move to the next instance of the role until you have applied or skipped all actions for the previous instance.

Again, not clearly stated as is. Removes the particular case of the Bar. Logical and in line with the “This is Glory to Rome” spirit.
Example if you have a Bar and an Aqueduct when performing multiple Patron actions :
- You can perform the standard, Bar and Aqueduct actions of a given Patron action in any order
- You have to either perform or skip standard, Bar and Aqueduct actions of a given Patron action before moving to the next Patron action. For instance, you cannot perform a Bar action for each of your Patron actions and then perform an Aqueduct action for each of your Patron actions and then...


3 : The clients you hired on your turn are not considered to be in your clientele or as your clients for any other purpose than clientele limit until the end of your turn.

This has been clearly stated by Carl himself and is somewhat written in the rules. This clarification insist on the fact that they cannot be used by any means until the end of your turn.
With the current interpretation of the rules, there is a potential issue. Take the Bath + Triclinium combo (that has been discussed in the “promo cards” thread) : if the Triclinium can apply to the newly hired client, how is it possible that we can't use the new role as soon as it enters the clientele ? In this case, all buildings affecting clientele or clients would work on newly hired clients (Circus Maximus, Ludus Magna, Storeroom, …). It creates a weird rule that would sound like “Your new clients doesn't count as clients for the purpose of additional actions but count for clients for any other purpose”. And the Circus Maximus example has been clearly ruled out. What about the Forum ? The client is here but not here ?
In the end, it seems to me that the rule I stated applies. If it is not the case, then it should be clearly stated that new clients immediately count for everything but the additional roles. Which would contradict some statements made earlier by Carl and Ed and feel weird (to me at least), or imply case-by-case exception which is worse.


4 : The construction site solely determines what type of material you can add to a structure/building along with the number of material you have to add to complete it. The foundations solely determine the type of the structure/building.
Said otherwise, the construction site is used as a reference when adding materials and checking completion, the foundations are used as a reference in all other cases.


Many reasons for this :
- the wording used in the game is neither consistent nor clearly explained. Structure is not clearly defined in the rulebook and “building” and “structure” are both used to point at the same game object.
- thematically, I really feel like the foundations are a “how to build” document for a building of a given prestige (or a construction permit) and construction site is the place you are going to actually build it using the materials it provides
- the current definition of a structure/building (foundations+site+materials) cannot be applied to both incomplete and completed structures/buildings. When it is complete, materials cannot be seen anymore (they may even be reused with new powers, like the promo Castra Praetoria) and the site is gone in the influence
I feel like this rule is simple, non-ambiguous and very thematic. When you add materials, check the site. For everything else, check the foundations.
- the Road allows you to build easily buildings of “stone prestige”
- the Gate allows you to activate buildings of “marble prestige”
- the Statue is a building of “marble prestige” that can only use the materials corresponding to the site it is built on
- ...
Yes, it breaks some combos, but they are some the weirdest ones and the clarification is worth it (even Rob says he doesn't like the Statue exception). It also prevents potential issues that new powers could raise (building a “rubble prestige” structure on a stone site and completing it easily with 3 rubbles, for instance).
I would have liked to rework the whole wording in both the cards and the rules but this is impossible. Some powers might have been better applied to the site instead of the foundations, but this rule works and I want to keep it simple.


5 : When a building is activated, its power is applied as if the action that made it go active was still going on.

Again, a necessary clarification. This explains why :
- The promo Clepsydra applies to itself upon completion
- An Aqueduct completed during a Patron action (via a Bath) allows to immediately take a Patron action from hand
- A Circus Maximus completed with your last Craftsmen/Architect action instantly gives you the additional actions before your turn finishes
- ...


6 : When you Think, you can always choose to draw only one card even if you have not reached your hand size limit.

The rules pretty much go in this direction the way they are currently worded (there is no condition to perform the draw 1 card), but the question has been asked and it seems that some says it is not the case (ie. you can draw only one card only if you've reached your hand limit). I can't see how such restriction could be justified.


7 : ”This is Glory to Rome” : as long as you respect the previous rules, anything that is open to interpretation should be interpreted in the most broken/powerful way.

No one will argue on this one


Some players (here and on Tric-Trac) have been quite frightened by all the weird exceptions and unclear rulings. I feel like my proposals doesn't harm the game while providing clarifications.
Those rules shouldn't be exposed to new players (as mentioned by Xethair). They could be integrated to the “advanced” section of the rules (with examples) before explaining the building powers in detail. I'm really inclined to apply them in my games.

What do you think about it ?
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Tim Seitz
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I like the building type clarification. I never liked the foundation + site + material approach.
 
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Andy Latto
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tublefou wrote:

3 : Your new clients are not considered to be in your clientele or as your clients for any other purpose than clientele limit until the end of the turn in which you hired them.

Suppose I have an active Forum, and take a Patron action, getting a new client which gives me one of each type. I think most people would play that I immediately win the game. However, under the above principle, I would not win until the end of the turn. Before the turn ends, another player who followed the Patron action, and has both the Bath ("When performing Patron action each client you hire may perform its action once as it enters CLIENTELE") and the Acamedy ("May perform one Thinker action after turn during which you performed the Craftsman action") active takes a Craftsman client, takes a craftsman action, thinks, and tries to refill his hand, emptying the draw pile. Would this end the game? And would the winner then be judged on points, or on the forum?

Or suppose he uses his Bath/Craftsman action to complete the Prison ("Upon Completion: May exchange 3 influence for Opponent's completed STRUCTURE") taking the Forum from me before the turn ends. Does this avoid the Forum win? And possibly let the prison builder get a forum win instead?

Or suppose he has a completed Bath and Stairway ("When performing Architect actio may add material to opponent's copleted STRUCTURE to make function available to all players") uses a Bath/Architect action to add material to the Forum. Can multiple players then get a Forum win?

I think most people's intuition is that if I have an active Forum, and I get my sixth type of client, I win immediately, not at the end of the turn. I think your rule/clarification be modified, to read either
Quote:
Your new clients are not considered to be in your clientele or as your clients for any other purpose than clientele limit until the end of your part of the turn in which you hired them.
or
Quote:
Your new clients are not considered to be in your clientele or as your clients for any other purpose than clientele limit and forum wins until the end of the turn in which you hired them.

 
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Thibaut Palfer-Sollier
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Indeed, I intended it to be at the end of your turn, not the whole turn. I rephrased it to make it clearer (I hope) :
tublefou wrote:
3 : The clients you hired on your turn are not considered to be in your clientele or as your clients for any other purpose than clientele limit until the end of your turn.

Is it better now ?

Thanks for the comments !
 
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Felix Lastname
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Very helpful, thanks for this. I have also seen the first point inquired in German forums, and indeed, while one can deduce it from the rules (in a way), one should not have to.
I felt we made No. 6 clear enough in the German rules.
But in general, I am not unhappy with having exceptions, so I would not see the need for 2 and 4 so much.
 
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Randall Bart
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tublefou wrote:
3 : The clients you hired on your turn are not considered to be in your clientele or as your clients for any other purpose than clientele limit until the end of your turn.

The rule is more restrictive than most rules in GtR, but it's clearly written in my rulebook.

Page 7 wrote:
New clients may not perform their role until the next player’s turn after they are hired.

Also
Page 18 wrote:
Garden
When you complete a Garden, at this time once only, you may execute
one Patron role for each point of Influence you have, including the
Influence you get from finishing the Garden.
The new clients do not provide you with additional roles this turn
(unlike structure Functions, clients do not provide benefits the turn
they are gained).


The new clients are clients immediately. The only thing that could be surprising is that clients don't execute their roles the turn they are hired unless you have a Bath.
 
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Juan F T
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I think they are ok. In fact, I just reviewed every rule with my wife (my most active opponent in GtR), and we have always played this way.

The "draw only 1 card" was not so clear. But helps! We had a situation recently were I was not interested in having cards in my hand, so drawing 1 would help.
 
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Thibaut Palfer-Sollier
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Barticus88 wrote:
The new clients are clients immediately. The only thing that could be surprising is that clients don't execute their roles the turn they are hired unless you have a Bath.

If you say this, then :
- The Circus Maximus gives you an additional action for each new client as soon as they are hired. It's not the client that provides its role but the building, using the sole fact that the client is a client immediately (and hence respecting your statement).
- The same reasoning works for the Ludus Magnus and the Storeroom : it's not the client that gets to perform its role but the building power that is used based on the fact that the client is in the clientele. Even worse in this case, you're not performing the client's role but another one, and hence respecting the "a new client cannot performs its role when it enters your clientele" rule.
- ...

If you do agree with those examples, then we can start to discuss about the merits of both possibilities. If you do not, then we have a rule that is ambiguous and open to interpretation or exceptions, which should be avoided. Whatever the final rule is.
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Randall Bart
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tublefou wrote:
- The Circus Maximus gives you an additional action for each new client as soon as they are hired. It's not the client that provides its role but the building, using the sole fact that the client is a client immediately (and hence respecting your statement).

The Circus Maximus effect occurs when the clients take their action due to you leading or following. When the client is hired it does not take its action, and therefore Circus Maximus does not apply.
 
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Danny O'Donnell
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tublefou wrote:
Barticus88 wrote:
The new clients are clients immediately. The only thing that could be surprising is that clients don't execute their roles the turn they are hired unless you have a Bath.

If you say this, then :
- The Circus Maximus gives you an additional action for each new client as soon as they are hired. It's not the client that provides its role but the building, using the sole fact that the client is a client immediately (and hence respecting your statement).
- The same reasoning works for the Ludus Magnus and the Storeroom : it's not the client that gets to perform its role but the building power that is used based on the fact that the client is in the clientele. Even worse in this case, you're not performing the client's role but another one, and hence respecting the "a new client cannot performs its role when it enters your clientele" rule.
- ...

If you do agree with those examples, then we can start to discuss about the merits of both possibilities. If you do not, then we have a rule that is ambiguous and open to interpretation or exceptions, which should be avoided. Whatever the final rule is.


Neither the Ludus Magnus nor the Storeroom tell you to perform an action, or even mention actions at all. All they say are that certain clients are allowed to act like a different type of client. And even if your new Merchant client is pretending to be a Patron, that extra Patron action is still clearly your new client's role, which, being new, it doesn't get to perform.

The Circus Maximus at least mentions actions, but it still doesn't tell you to take them. It still clearly states that the action comes from the client, and a client that doesn't get to perform its role this turn still doesn't get to when it tries a second time. If the Circus Maximus's wording had been something like, "take a second action for each of your clients," then I would agree with your interpretation (and argue that it was probably intentional). But as it stands, I disagree with your main assertion: all three of those buildings are very clearly worded such that it is the client, and not the building itself, that provides the role.
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Thibaut Palfer-Sollier
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Barticus88 wrote:
tublefou wrote:
- The Circus Maximus gives you an additional action for each new client as soon as they are hired. It's not the client that provides its role but the building, using the sole fact that the client is a client immediately (and hence respecting your statement).

The Circus Maximus effect occurs when the clients take their action due to you leading or following. When the client is hired it does not take its action, and therefore Circus Maximus does not apply.

This is necessarily wrong, because in that case the Circus Maximus wouldn't "retroactively" double all your clients even if some of them have been already used. And this has been clearly stated by Carl himself. You have to consider that the Circus Maximus gives you an additional action per client.

PsychoDan wrote:
Neither the Ludus Magnus nor the Storeroom tell you to perform an action, or even mention actions at all. All they say are that certain clients are allowed to act like a different type of client. And even if your new Merchant client is pretending to be a Patron, that extra Patron action is still clearly your new client's role, which, being new, it doesn't get to perform.

To me, the building allows you to act based on your clientele. It is far from being as clear to you as it is for me. What about Bath + Storeroom or Ludus Magnus then ? Can you choose the role you apply when activating the Bath as the client is now part of your clientele ?

PsychoDan wrote:
The Circus Maximus at least mentions actions, but it still doesn't tell you to take them. It still clearly states that the action comes from the client, and a client that doesn't get to perform its role this turn still doesn't get to when it tries a second time. If the Circus Maximus's wording had been something like, "take a second action for each of your clients," then I would agree with your interpretation (and argue that it was probably intentional). But as it stands, I disagree with your main assertion: all three of those buildings are very clearly worded such that it is the client, and not the building itself, that provides the role.

Without the building, you wouldn't get the actions whether or not a client is present. So the building provides the actions based on the client's presence in the clientele.

All in all, I don't like what the current rule tells me. It is very weird for me to consider that the client is in the clientele for any purpose but the standard action it normally provides. It's open to interpretation. And it doesn't quite match the spirit of the rule which is to me : "You do not get any benefit from your clients the turn they are hired".

On a side note, I would like to understand why new clients doesn't immediately act. Is this an issue with hiring Patron clients ?
Patron clients is not a strong client because you have no interest in having many instances of them (I'd even say more than one). They eat up clientele space with the only benefit of allowing you to...eat it faster.
So, to me, it's a non-issue. Is this an issue with the craziness that can generate some combos ? Like completing a Garden during a Craftsmen action and hiring Craftsmen clients ?
In those cases, you will only get a few more actions. And to really go crazy you need to have some crazy combos that are already very powerful in themselves (like Bath+Garden).
Can someone explain why there is such a restriction ? I think I would be very happy to make new clients immediately usable.
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Robert
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tublefou wrote:
1 : Actions are never mandatory and never condition the possibility to perform subsequent actions.

You are double using "actions". The clarification you seek is that you do not have to perform an action to be considered executing the role. A better way to write the rules would be to say explicitly that you "execute" a "role" and said execution includes performing "actions". Then describe the "basic action" associated with each role, which you get one of by default. Saying things this way, your turn might consist of executing the Patron role three times, with each execution including one (optional) Patron action. An Aqueduct would provide an additional modified Patron action when executing the Patron role. An Archway provides a modification available to the basic Architect action, but does not change executing the role. Then actions are clearly contained in executions, and it's easy to be explicit about actions being optional and unordered without convoluted, perverse phrasings like "condition the possibility to perform". The current rules mix "action", "execute" and "perform", but don't quite use them consistently or distinctly enough to imbue them with added meaning and increase clarity. Straightening that out would obviate a lot of questions/deductions that get raised as one learns the mechanics.

Quote:
2 : When performing one instance of a given role, you can apply all the actions related to the role in any order. However, you cannot move to the next instance of the role until you have applied or skipped all actions for the previous instance.

This is conceptually unnecessary, since the order of actions is unspecified but still naturally contained by the role execution. The only ordering constraint is the Bar, and we have never had an issue with that. In fact, we simplify the rules the opposite direction (to what I consider the spirit of the rules): the Bar action must be performed last in a Patron execution.

Quote:
3 : The clients you hired on your turn are not considered to be in your clientele or as your clients for any other purpose than clientele limit until the end of your turn.

Overly restrictive, and confusingly stated. A hired client is still a client, and is technically part of your clientele as soon as you hire it. The rules only restrict new clients from executing a role the turn you hire them. There's nothing confusing about any of that. The Bath changes that, and buildings you have do apply to Bath-activated clients, as is normal (eg, if you follow Patron, and have a Circus Maximus and Bath, then you execute new Patron clients twice, but other clients once). (Note: I do not use the rule change that client limit can be altered after hiring a client, because the rules were not unclear on that before and the change adds no value besides confusion of simple things)

Quote:
4 : Said otherwise, the construction site is used as a reference when adding materials and checking completion, the foundations are used as a reference in all other cases.

Again, a needless over-complication. (Note: Again, I completely reject the new rule change on building type depending on Materials used.) By my rulebook, the type of a building is its foundation, which governs the Material you can add. The Statue, Scriptorium, and Road make simple exceptions to that. Your change doesn't do anything but reduce the Statue, when its exception is no more complex or confusing than the Road's. What should be changed is to make the Statue explicit about making the building dual-typed rather than phrasing it as allowing both kinds of materials (technically, as written in my rules, you couldn't use a Road on a Stone Statue, but we pretty much all know that probably wasn't the intent).

Quote:
5 : When a building is activated, its power is applied as if the action that made it go active was still going on.

Absolutely not, even if that weren't an extremely confusing concept to try and introduce safely into the rules.

Quote:
Again, a necessary clarification. This explains why :
- The promo Clepsydra applies to itself upon completion

It does that because it says so. The fan-made cards are not going effectively to motivate rules changes. Let's not forget that the promo cards are not actually part of the game. That said, the card power is already a huge exception, so why is it any better with your convoluted rule change wrapped around it? (I'd say that card was a bad idea and applying it to itself was an even worse idea)

Quote:
- An Aqueduct completed during a Patron action (via a Bath) allows to immediately take a Patron action from hand

The action that added the material has finished, but the Patron execution which that action was taken within is still happening, so Aqueduct applies immediately as per normal.

Quote:
- A Circus Maximus completed with your last Craftsmen/Architect action instantly gives you the additional actions before your turn finishes

The building gives an additional execution for each client of the role, not makes each client act two times instead of one time. Your clients are not "spent" just because you took the action they gave you, and your turn isn't over yet since you have a bunch more executions to perform (the fact that you finished your CM using your previously-considered "last" action is entirely irrelevant).

Quote:
6 : When you Think, you can always choose to draw only one card even if you have not reached your hand size limit.
The rules pretty much go in this direction the way they are currently worded (there is no condition to perform the draw 1 card

The rules (unless this has also changed) clearly state that if you choose to draw cards you must draw to your hand size: you cannot use the "draw one card" option unless you are already at your hand size. I don't care one way or the other as far as that rule, but there isn't any ambiguity or exception as written. The only problem is that they chose to write it as a threefold "OR" with following clarification instead of what's really going on: "You may add to your hand from the Jacks or from the Deck. If you add Jacks, you get one. If you add from the deck you get enough to fill your hand size, or one if you hand is already its target size."

Quote:
7 : ”This is Glory to Rome” : as long as you respect the previous rules, anything that is open to interpretation should be interpreted in the most broken/powerful way.
No one will argue on this one :)

I have argued fairly extensively against this one, and the thread about it fairly effectively demonstrated its inherent evil, so I'm a little confused by the assertion of unanimity.

Quote:
Some players (here and on Tric-Trac) have been quite frightened by all the weird exceptions and unclear rulings.

Honestly, I don't even have a slight sympathy for people being frightened that perfectly functional and sensible rules are built using exceptions. The last thing I want to happen to Glory to Rome is for it to be machined down to a boring rule set in the interest of false clarity. The rules could have been better written and more exacting, but they are actually fairly clear. The interactions just get fairly complex, and you often have people arguing in favor of something they're vested in rather than taking what honestly makes sense (eg, the discussion of whether a Gate could let a Forum built on the final in-town site win the game).

Quote:
I feel like my proposals doesn't harm the game while providing clarifications.

I don't see the advantage to any of these (aside form striking the unwelcome rule change about type depending on materials added), and I do see harm being done, both to the game and the rule-set. There are better ways to achieve clarification than altering the meaning of the rules. I especially don't see what makes these particular exceptions stand out to you and problematic. Most of the rules/procedures are altered in one way or another by building effects. That's the essential nature of the game.

Quote:
Those rules shouldn't be exposed to new players (as mentioned by Xethair).

No, I was explaining CGF's likely choice of style/presentation. I would far prefer the rules were written clearly and completely from the start, rather than forcing you to continually revise your idea of how things really work (which I would say is even more destructive to new players than daunting looking rules). I feel it is worse to pretend simplicity than to teach clearly. I'd actually be happy to do a "gamers' re-write", but I couldn't post it, since no sane publisher would grant the rights required by the BGG Terms of Service.
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Robert
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tublefou wrote:
To me, the building allows you to act based on your clientele. It is far from being as clear to you as it is for me. What about Bath + Storeroom or Ludus Magnus then ? Can you choose the role you apply when activating the Bath as the client is now part of your clientele ?

You are talking yourself into a confusion of words that isn't really there. Your clients are your clientele. Buildings that affect your clientele affect your clients as soon as they are your clients. So, the Bath has no issues combining with the Storeroom or Ludus Magna.

Quote:
Without the building, you wouldn't get the actions whether or not a client is present. So the building provides the actions based on the client's presence in the clientele.

No, the building allows you to take additional actions for each client. It provides a capacity by changing how many actions a client gives you. When you finish it, you may immediately draw on and execute the additional actions your clients provide. A newly hired client, however, does not perform its role, so, with a Circus Maximus, it merely does not perform its role twice. It states this reasonably clearly, so I don't know where you are trying to leverage this supposed confusion.

As I said somewhere else, it is better if you think of performing actions from those available from your clientele rather than thinking of using your clients individually. You can use the action your client gives you, but it doesn't mean the client is "used". If circumstances change and that client provides more actions, then you simply have more actions to use. It's natural to think of "using" your clients (it was certainly my initial inclination), but it leads to lines of thought that seem to create confusion for people as they walk through compounded effects. This is not the fault of the rules, although they could (and would probably be wise to) preemptively address it to help readers.

You have your clientele, made up of all your clients. Clients hired this turn provide no actions (unless you have a Bath). You may execute actions until your clientele can not provide any more.

Quote:
All in all, I don't like what the current rule tells me. It is very weird for me to consider that the client is in the clientele for any purpose but the standard action it normally provides. It's open to interpretation. And it doesn't quite match the spirit of the rule which is to me : "You do not get any benefit from your clients the turn they are hired".

That's a pretty far jump for the spirit there, for someone that contests my saying the spirit of the Bar is that you commit to your open-information choices before your draw from the deck. I think the spirit is that you have to use a Bath or already have secured a client to get extra actions from it on your turn, since that's as clear in the rules as the fact that you win as soon as you have a Forum and all six types. I don't see anything open to interpretation about this -- there are no other cases.

Quote:
On a side note, I would like to understand why new clients doesn't immediately act.

1) Not being able to benefit from things the turn you gain them is a fairly normal game restriction. GtR changes that for many things, just not clients. Whether it's an arbitrary design choice or not, it's still a design choice that has been tested and works.
2) The current rule makes the Bath have a more consistent and distinct effect. It would be diminished and uneven if it was already the normal way of doing things.
3) It's important to restrict Patrons acting immediately because it decomposes into an obvious choice where you always pull Patron(s) and then something else as long as you have space, which throws an uneven advantage to the first player, a denial to the rest, and overly drains the pool.
4) The rules are about the same either way. You could just as easily write them the other way and then ask why they do get to immediately act. "...especially with the drain of Marble and clients from the pool, and making it weird that the Bath really only affects some specific circumstances instead of being generally useful like other buildings."

Quote:
Patron clients is not a strong client because you have no interest in having many instances of them (I'd even say more than one). They eat up clientele space with the only benefit of allowing you to...eat it faster.

I'm always happier with a couple Patron clients, as long as I have space. There are a lot of things that open up from that. You talk about them like they only eat clientele space, rather than like they add bonus actions at an increased pace. Bonus actions which can often be leveraged to make more clientele space...

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So, to me, it's a non-issue. Is this an issue with the craziness that can generate some combos ? Like completing a Garden during a Craftsmen action and hiring Craftsmen clients ?

That's something you get for your Bath. To me, the mechanics seem simpler the way they are. You want rules that have fewer exceptions, but they just add uneven bumps into the mechanics. Sometimes more text expresses a simpler idea. It's not like "Clients don't act the turn you hire them" is a weighty concept that sticks out in the rules.

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Can someone explain why there is such a restriction ? I think I would be very happy to make new clients immediately usable.

Because it works better that way. Why do you need to be able to do more than the rules offer? Sure making clients act immediately is appealing, from a fairly narrow and immediate viewpoint. Everyone *wants* to get to use the client right away. That doesn't mean the game is better if you can, though.
 
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Thibaut Palfer-Sollier
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You made me realize that this is mostly a question of personal taste.

I just hate exceptions and try to avoid them whenever possible (e.g. Bar). I want to have clear always-applicable rules even at the cost of some particular gameplay possibilities (e.g. Statue). I want gameplay elements that expend your possibilities not that contradict the rules or make them subject to interpretation (e.g. clients). I have my way to interpret the game and what it tries to evoke thematically (e.g. buildings-related rules).

So, those proposals are mainly the expression of my tastes. No one is right or wrong in the end...
 
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