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Subject: "Friedrich" vs "Maria" pool rss

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Martins Livens
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Poll: "Friedrich" vs "Maria"
Games designed by Richard Sivel. Comparison without hate.
If you like "Friedrich", "Maria" or both. Which one you like better? By lot?
Both are equally good.
I prefer "Friedrich".
I prefer "Maria".
"Friedrich" is way better!
"Maria" is way better!
      140 answers
Poll created by marliv
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I think Maria's the deeper game, but really, it's a matter of whether you have three players or four as to which one will hit the table around these parts.
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Greg Low
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I'm surprised to see Maria doing so much better than Friedrich in the poll since my friends and I strongly prefer Friedrich. Of course it might also result from being posted in the Maria forum first!

We've found that the assigned alliances in Friedrich better ensure balance throughout the game. We find Friedrich is typically won by the player who played the best, while Maria feels like it is won by the player who benefited the most from someone else playing badly. Oh well. Good thing there's multiple games for multiple tastes.

Best,
-Greg
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Mark Delano
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A good game of Friedrich depends on the Friedrich player playing well. Substandard play by them will probably lead to a rapid win by one of the other players, whether they deserve it or not.

Maria can also have the same problem, but since all players are fighting all others you can take advantage of the other player's weaknesses as well.
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Greg Low
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Mark,

I agree with your statement, and I feel like that's exactly my issue. For Friedrich we only need one good player to avoid kingmaking. Maria takes three good players. I can find one (or play Prussia myself), while I can't always find three.

Best,
-Greg
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marliv wrote:
Comparison without hate.

What on earth does hate have to do with a comparison of Friedrich and Maria?
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Martins Livens
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Sphere wrote:
marliv wrote:
Comparison without hate.

What on earth does hate have to do with a comparison of Friedrich and Maria?


This was kind of joke. // hate list, hate pool //
I listed only positive answers to filter awayout people who are mostly negative to those games.
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Quote:
For Friedrich we only need one good player to avoid kingmaking.


I guess you mean "unintentional kingmaking" (due to bad play (blunders, unexperienced moves, etc.)) ?
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Mark Delano
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talrich wrote:
Mark,

I agree with your statement, and I feel like that's exactly my issue. For Friedrich we only need one good player to avoid kingmaking. Maria takes three good players. I can find one (or play Prussia myself), while I can't always find three.

Best,
-Greg


I think you missed my meaning. In Maria you always have a chance to attack (or help) the weak player. In Friedrich only Friedrich can attack the other players, and the other players can only attack Friedrich. It's more difficult to compensate for weaknesses.
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Greg Low
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rsivel wrote:
I guess you mean "unintentional kingmaking" (due to bad play (blunders, unexperienced moves, etc.)) ?
I see blunders affecting both games similarly. I recall a recent blunder by Austria in turns 1 & 2 in Friedrich so extreme that neither France nor Russia could compensate. Therefore, I don't think the unintentional kingmaking is an issue that divides the two games, nor do I see it as a problem.

It is intentional kingmaking where the two games really split. Maria (as a political game) is rife with kingmaking. Often discussion of kingmaking is merely a threat by a power looking for breathing room. Every game Austria cries, "Prussia, don't you see that your armies marching on me will cause us both to lose to France?" When Austria can't convince Austria or France to back off, then Austria can divide equally and lose both fronts, or pick a winner by splitting unequally. Usually they split in favor of the player they thought was more reasonable. I see that as kingmaking, since Austria, a clear loser, is picking (or strongly influencing) the winner.

frunkee wrote:
In Maria you always have a chance to attack (or help) the weak player. In Friedrich only Friedrich can attack the other players, and the other players can only attack Friedrich. It's more difficult to compensate for weaknesses.
I don't find Maria to hold that much freedom of action. You can't chose who to attack or defend; you just choose to attack now or attack later. I also find one needs experienced players for them to appciate who the weak player is in the first place.
Moderately new players do not intuitively know who to help.

Best,
-Greg

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Mark Delano
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talrich wrote:
I don't find Maria to hold that much freedom of action. You can't chose who to attack or defend; you just choose to attack now or attack later. I also find one needs experienced players for them to appciate who the weak player is in the first place.
Moderately new players do not intuitively know who to help.

Best,
-Greg



I disagree precisely because of issues with kingmaking. Austria has the choice of attacking or defending Prussia or France. Similarly France has the choice of attacking or defending Pragmatics or Austria. Prussia/Pragmatics can choose to concentrate on France or on Austria, potentially subsidizing/politically supporting one side or the other if it helps them.

I was worried that the kingmaking would bother me, but it hasn't. You still have a great deal of control over your destiny, and if you set up a winning position there's relatively little a player wishing to kingmake can do.

In Friedrich you can have a fun game with the experienced player as Friedrich, but unless at least two of his opponents are of a similar level it won't be competitive barring seriously bad luck.

In Maria it is almost always competitive or finished by early in the second year. I like that the non-competitive games are finished relatively quickly. A good Friedrich player frequently has to grind out a victory, waiting for the countries to drop. I've had a few games that finished on the last turn where Friedrich's position was not in doubt. It reduces the fun knowing that might happen, and with inexperienced players against Friedrich it is more likely.
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