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Subject: Winning conditions on score track incl. treasure chest rss

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Hi,

I`m a little bit unsecure on this one, so maybe you can help me in this:

Gues a case, in which I`m having 50 gold coins in my treasure chest. Now I`m receiving 5 glory points. Does the game end in this case?!
50 goild coins are equivalent to 5 glory points....so in this case I would have 10 in total, which would one of the winning conditions....

am I correct?!

 
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Scott Lewis
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Correct, but it doesn't end immediately; every player gets to finish their turn first.

After each player has their turn, you then count scores. If there is a tie, whoever had more non-Stash points will win.
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M. S.
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Thanks a lot for the fast reply. Ok, so we played it correctly. ;-)
 
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Was George Orwell an Optimist?
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Another mistake made by new players is to forget that they have to take the gold back to their home port and put it in their treasure chest - having all or part of that 50 gold still on your ship doesn't qualify for victory.
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Daniel Hammond
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Also I am pretty sure that you have to declare that you are at or over 10 glory points, it isn't something that you have to do.
 
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Sheldon Morris
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dlhammond wrote:
Also I am pretty sure that you have to declare that you are at or over 10 glory points, it isn't something that you have to do.

 
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Hugin wrote:
dlhammond wrote:
Also I am pretty sure that you have to declare that you are at or over 10 glory points, it isn't something that you have to do.


I think he means that if you have, say, 5 points on the board, and 50 gold, you aren't required to immediately say so; you can keep going.
 
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Christopher Murphy
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sigmazero13 wrote:
Hugin wrote:
dlhammond wrote:
Also I am pretty sure that you have to declare that you are at or over 10 glory points, it isn't something that you have to do.


I think he means that if you have, say, 5 points on the board, and 50 gold, you aren't required to immediately say so; you can keep going.


My question is - is this correct? The rules state "Once a player reaches 10 Glory Points (including the secret points for stashed Gold – see “Stash”), he declares so and the game ends after everyone has had their turn."

It doesn't seem to imply you have a choice. If you have no choice in declaring you are at 10 glory, it makes stashing away a lot of gold a rather risky way to go. I'd love to see official clarification on this!
 
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Squaresville wrote:
sigmazero13 wrote:
Hugin wrote:
dlhammond wrote:
Also I am pretty sure that you have to declare that you are at or over 10 glory points, it isn't something that you have to do.

:what:

I think he means that if you have, say, 5 points on the board, and 50 gold, you aren't required to immediately say so; you can keep going.


My question is - is this correct? The rules state "Once a player reaches 10 Glory Points (including the secret points for stashed Gold – see “Stash”), he declares so and the game ends after everyone has had their turn."

It doesn't seem to imply you have a choice. If you have no choice in declaring you are at 10 glory, it makes stashing away a lot of gold a rather risky way to go. I'd love to see official clarification on this!
It is a little ambiguous, but I agree that the "right" way seems to be to declare it as soon as you hit 10.


I can see how it would be nice to be able to have that cushion of 50 stashed gold in place while you're going around trying to squeeze out a few more "visible" glory points, but it could make for a very anti-climatic ending if someone with 5 on the board races home to stash the remaining gold they need to hit 10 and claim the win... only to find out that someone else with 5 glory points on the board was sandbagging and had already "won" a few turns earlier but didn't bother to tell anyone.
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Christopher Murphy
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Woelf wrote:

I can see how it would be nice to be able to have that cushion of 50 stashed gold in place while you're going around trying to squeeze out a few more "visible" glory points, but it could make for a very anti-climatic ending if someone with 5 on the board races home to stash the remaining gold they need to hit 10 and claim the win... only to find out that someone else with 5 glory points on the board was sandbagging and had already "won" a few turns earlier but didn't bother to tell anyone.


I completely agree and, barring a developer revelation to the contrary, we will take it as read that you are required to declare upon reaching 10 glory regardless of the methods so be wary of your standing on the glory track. Thanks for the input!
 
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Are you guys worried that about a guy not claiming victory when he qualifies for it? Seriously?
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Christopher Murphy
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Sphere wrote:
Are you guys worried that about a guy not claiming victory when he qualifies for it? Seriously?


I'll admit it might not be a common occurrence, but consider: I have 5 on the board and 50 gold to stash. If I were able to stash and keep playing that could be a better move if allowed when another player has 7 on the board and I suspect he's stashed at least 2 points worth during the game. When I declare, he might be able to easily stash a further one and then win himself during his last turn. In any case, all of this is moot as it seems clear declaring is compulsory.
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Squaresville wrote:
In any case, all of this is moot as it seems clear declaring is compulsory.

I disagree that it's "clear" that it's compulsory, especially since it's impossible to enforce. I'm not even talking about "deliberate" hiding, either; a player may have forgotten how much gold he has stashed and doesn't declare.

Making it "mandatory" doesn't seem right, especially since "real" points are worth more than stash points for tiebreakers. That could mean a player is PUNISHED for stashing too much gold early, which seems contrary to the point of the game.
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Squaresville wrote:
I'll admit it might not be a common occurrence, but consider: I have 5 on the board and 50 gold to stash. If I were able to stash and keep playing that could be a better move if allowed when another player has 7 on the board and I suspect he's stashed at least 2 points worth during the game. When I declare, he might be able to easily stash a further one and then win himself during his last turn.

That doesn't add up. Either he's earlier in the turn order than you, or he's later in the turn order. If he's earlier in the turn order and you declare, he's done and can't stash anymore - you win. If he's later in the turn order and can get enough points together, he'll do that and win regardless of whether or not you declared.
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Christopher Murphy
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sigmazero13 wrote:
Squaresville wrote:
In any case, all of this is moot as it seems clear declaring is compulsory.

I disagree that it's "clear" that it's compulsory, especially since it's impossible to enforce. I'm not even talking about "deliberate" hiding, either; a player may have forgotten how much gold he has stashed and doesn't declare.

Making it "mandatory" doesn't seem right, especially since "real" points are worth more than stash points for tiebreakers. That could mean a player is PUNISHED for stashing too much gold early, which seems contrary to the point of the game.


Why I'm seeing it as clear is because the printed rule: "Once a player reaches 10 Glory Points (including the secret points for stashed Gold – see “Stash”), he declares so and the game ends after everyone has had their turn" like it or not does not include a "may" before the declare. Once you reach 10, you declare so and you'd better hope you've made the correct choices stash-wise. I find it difficult to read the rule any other way unless Christian states otherwise, such as the errata where any number of possessed cargo was allowed while in port was changed to 6. I have no vested interest in declaring being mandatory, I just cannot see another interpretation from the rule as printed.
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How do you penalize a guy who could have won but failed to do so? I understand that in Victorian England, attempted suicide was a hanging offense...
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Squaresville wrote:
Why I'm seeing it as clear is because the printed rule: "Once a player reaches 10 Glory Points (including the secret points for stashed Gold – see “Stash”), he declares so and the game ends after everyone has had their turn" like it or not does not include a "may" before the declare.

Nor does it include a "must" before the declare. The mandatory-ness of the declaration is far from clear.
 
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Sphere wrote:
How do you penalize a guy who could have won but failed to do so? I understand that in Victorian England, attempted suicide was a hanging offense...

The problem is, there are times (albeit rare) where being FORCED to declare could end up causing you to LOSE. If you were just barely at 10, and another person had 9, and you are forced to declare, that person could get 10 or 11 without you getting another chance; if you would have had another turn, say, perhaps you could have gotten more.

I admit it's not a common situation, but it could happen where declaring can be a bad thing since all the other players get one more turn which you can't do anything about.
 
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sigmazero13 wrote:
The problem is, there are times (albeit rare) where being FORCED to declare could end up causing you to LOSE. If you were just barely at 10, and another person had 9, and you are forced to declare, that person could get 10 or 11 without you getting another chance; if you would have had another turn, say, perhaps you could have gotten more.

See my post above in response to Christopher's example. If the other guy gets 10 or 11, he will declare. You can't stop him from declaring by not declaring yourself.
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Kyle
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sigmazero13 wrote:
Sphere wrote:
How do you penalize a guy who could have won but failed to do so? I understand that in Victorian England, attempted suicide was a hanging offense...

The problem is, there are times (albeit rare) where being FORCED to declare could end up causing you to LOSE. If you were just barely at 10, and another person had 9, and you are forced to declare, that person could get 10 or 11 without you getting another chance; if you would have had another turn, say, perhaps you could have gotten more.

I admit it's not a common situation, but it could happen where declaring can be a bad thing since all the other players get one more turn which you can't do anything about.
It does take a very specific set of circumstances where not declaring could be to your advantage. You almost have to be running on the assumption that the other players potentially in position to "steal" the win were not already on their way there to declare it themselves.

It's possible they didn't think they would have enough to win the tiebreakers, or maybe getting back into their own home port requires getting past a hostile NPC or two - in either case, they might not have been willing to risk running home to unload this turn unless someone else forced the endgame.



One other aspect to consider is that some players simply like running up the score and/or will take pride in going above and beyond the minimum needed to win. 10 glory points might not be good enough for them, so if they see an opportunity to do it with 12 they'll take it.
 
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sigmazero13 wrote:
Squaresville wrote:
Why I'm seeing it as clear is because the printed rule: "Once a player reaches 10 Glory Points (including the secret points for stashed Gold – see “Stash”), he declares so and the game ends after everyone has had their turn" like it or not does not include a "may" before the declare.

Nor does it include a "must" before the declare. The mandatory-ness of the declaration is far from clear.


You're splitting some extremely fine hairs here. So, for a rule to be binding you feel a "must" need be always included. For example, when in ship combat the rules state: "Each round the players declare which combat action they wish to perform." So, since it doesn't say "must declare" I'm not bound to obey the rule? I really believe it is a common rule convention that unless given the option with a "may" or some other similar verbiage players are bound to do what the rules say, even without a "must" in every single sentence.
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Woelf wrote:
[q="sigmazero13"]It does take a very specific set of circumstances where not declaring could be to your advantage. You almost have to be running on the assumption that the other players potentially in position to "steal" the win were not already on their way there to declare it themselves.

So we have one guy who doesn't declare because he is worried that the other guy might be ahead, and the only reason the other guy wouldn't have declared is because he's worried the first guy might be ahead. These guys are not pirate material.

Squaresville wrote:
You're splitting some extremely fine hairs here.

And you are as well, Christopher. Pirates don't split hairs, they split skulls!


I propose a variant: Wimps & Lawyers! The wimps will never declare victory because they fear it might not be good enough, while the lawyers hold a referendum on how to punish the wimps for not winning when they were supposed to. Estimated playing time: 9000 hours
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Sphere wrote:
sigmazero13 wrote:
The problem is, there are times (albeit rare) where being FORCED to declare could end up causing you to LOSE. If you were just barely at 10, and another person had 9, and you are forced to declare, that person could get 10 or 11 without you getting another chance; if you would have had another turn, say, perhaps you could have gotten more.

See my post above in response to Christopher's example. If the other guy gets 10 or 11, he will declare. You can't stop him from declaring by not declaring yourself.

True, but it's no guarantee he will either.

It's going to be very rare, to be sure.
 
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Squaresville wrote:
You're splitting some extremely fine hairs here. So, for a rule to be binding you feel a "must" need be always included.

Splitting hairs goes both ways here.

I'm simply saying it's not clear on this point. There are times where "must" is not needed. I do not feel this is one of those times. The lack of "may" does not always mean that it wasn't implied.

How would you enforce it? This would be the only unenforceable rule in the game if it was mandatory.
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Sphere wrote:
Woelf wrote:
It does take a very specific set of circumstances where not declaring could be to your advantage. You almost have to be running on the assumption that the other players potentially in position to "steal" the win were not already on their way there to declare it themselves.

So we have one guy who doesn't declare because he is worried that the other guy might be ahead, and the only reason the other guy wouldn't have declared is because he's worried the first guy might be ahead. These guys are not pirate material.
Yeah, they're clearly merchants. arrrh


I still think that declaring you have 10 shouldn't be optional, but obviously there are some specific circumstances where not doing so can be advantageous. Regardless of which way the hairs get split, an official word from Christian would be helpful to clear this up.
 
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