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Dominion» Forums » Variants

Subject: More action, less "buy money" rss

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Markus
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Buying only money will not win against decent players. Learn to beat that strategy and your friends will stop using it since it is no longer winning.
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Pere
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I don't see the necessity to penalize Big Money strategies. They aren't that good.

The usual evolution of a domineer is:
1) Holy crap! I need to buy lots of actions! Better capitalize on those villages too!
2) Wait a second... buying only treasures is an easy win! (a lot of people stop playing here, stating that the game is broken)
3) The sudden realization that a good balance between actions and money is the way to go.

You don't need that house rule, just try to beat Big Money. A hint: start with a Big Money deck with a Smithy or a Library.
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Drew Spencer
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It seems like you've read those other threads, so I'm not sure why you still think this is a problem. The best players buy Action cards. If you lose against big money, then it means you're buying the wrong Action cards or buying the wrong number of them or something like that.

The game is not broken. You'll have more fun learning how to beat big money than you will instituting a house rule designed to make a bad strategy worse so that other bad strategies can win against it.
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Matt N

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I mean... if you're playing with intrigue, you have minion, torturer, swindler, and various other cards that can annihilate big money off the top of my head. If everyone is buying three coppersmiths and three scouts, then they deserve to lose. Likewise if they use ironworks to gain more ironworks to gain more barons/coppersmiths/scouts, etc.

Put very simply, swindler/silver is a lot better than silver/silver, and mixing in a trasher will help even more. All money > all actions (usually), but a halfway intelligent mix beats them both.

Er... did you really think that people on the forum would think that big money was overpowered?
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Mark McEvoy
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sthrjo wrote:
So here is my suggestion to a House Rule, emanating from one guy asking "Is it allowed to skip the Action phase?":
If 0 actions is taken in the Action phase, the player must either reveal one Action card; or reveal a hand of at most 5 Coins from Treasure cards; or {discard down to 3 cards, reveal the hand, and gain one Curse if he has more than 5 Coins from Treasure cards in the hand}. Then the Buy phase starts.


So in the first two turns I buy Silver and a 4-action. Fairly typical even for non-big-money players.

On turn 3 or 4, I draw 4 copper and a silver.

For that draw, I get penalized by only having 4 to buy rather than the 6 I drew, *and* having to eat a curse? And doubly penalized at that because my other draw of 3-4 is likely full of Estates.
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Robert Kirk
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Why bother house-ruling?

Do you have fun playing (whichever style you choose, money or action chains)? Do they?

Do you enjoy winning? Would you rather *PLAY* (regardless of who wins) or *WIN*? If you insist on winning, it may be harder to play in the first place (as fewer people come to your sessions, as they always lose)...

Develop strategies that work as well as Big Money. Stack the Kingdom cards with things that combo well against Big Money (throne room throne room smithy == +9 cards with one "play an action and double it" still pending, surely you can come up with something there), or play thematically ("only orange" [duration] cards from Seaside, or "only green" [victory] from all the sets, or...).

.

.

My family plays as often as we can, but it's always just me, my brother, and our mother. Mom doesn't really like action chains too much--she understands Throne Room, Village, Festival, Merchant Ship, things like that just fine--but by golly she knows Gold (or Platinum) *really* well. My brother & I work with computers, so flowcharting an action chain is no problem.

We think it breaks down to roughly he & I split evenly (about 30% each) but she wins the rest (about 40%). We get so wrapped up in the *mechanics* (of *doing* the turn) we never actually get anywhere in terms of WINNING (buying Provinces).

.

.

Short version: Play what's fun for you. If people want to win more... they need to adjust how they play. OR they can continue to play "fun", but don't expect to win. By definition, there's going to be at least as many disappointed (non-winning) players at the table as there are winners, and it only gets more true if you go beyond 2-player games.
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Ido Abelman
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krakii wrote:
OR they can continue to play "fun", but don't expect to win.

I don't like the above statement. Games where that statement is true (=playing to win isn't fun) are those games where there are obvious strategies that ruin the game - bad games IMO. Dominion isn't such a game. I always play for the win, and it's almost always fun for me.
 
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Vince Lupo
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DeePee wrote:
Buying only money will not win against decent players. Learn to beat that strategy and your friends will stop using it since it is no longer winning.




OH. the original post was deleted...


But I do see the quoted variant and yeah, you don't need that.
 
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Mike Miller

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I'm pretty sure nothing annoys me more than the first post of a thread being deleted. It makes me all big, green, and angry.
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Branko K.
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pinkymadigan wrote:
I'm pretty sure nothing annoys me more than the first post of a thread being deleted. It makes me all big, green, and angry.


Agreed. Irritating.

BGG should at least leave "post deleted" placeholder. Because I was pretty confused why on Earth would DeePee make a thread called "more action, less buy money" and then start telling everyone to learn beating Big Money.
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WDP
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Of course, it's hardly surprising that the original post was deleted given the disrespect the original poster was clearly shown.

My wife and I have been playing D:Intrigue lately and we've hit Pere's stage 2 up above and are about ready to give up playing the game. I'm on here looking for advice on how to make the game enjoyable (either through variation to discourage Big Money or strategies to beat it) and this sort of disrespect seems to permeate all discussion of this issue. It's sickening.

I gather that a lot of Dominion fans are upset that people give up on their beloved game. I can see why they'd be upset about that. But this sort of behavior just drives away potential new fans.

If those people didn't like the proposed variant, then it didn't help them enjoy their game. Okay. So the variant is of no interest to them. So they have no need to comment on it. Leave it alone for the people who will be helped by the suggestion.

Now those of us who would be content to enjoy the game we've bought by trying this fellow's variant are robbed of that opportunity.
 
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Branko K.
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Tiwsman wrote:
Of course, it's hardly surprising that the original post was deleted given the disrespect the original poster was clearly shown.


It *is* suprising. And annoying. And rather rude. Btw please show me this disrespect. Seriously, point it out.

Tiwsman wrote:

Now those of us who would be content to enjoy the game we've bought by trying this fellow's variant are robbed of that opportunity.


No you are not. If you were little less eager to berate the BGG community and a little more patient, you would have actually read the thread and saw his suggestion in huge font just a few posts down.

Personally, I see no reason why people who propose a bad variant shouldn't be told their suggestion is bad and why, especially if arguments are valid and clearly told without insults or bad manner. This is useful info for people actually wanting to try out a variant, it saves them time and frustration from trying out something that works badly and figuring that out for themselves. DELETING the original post is what is bad mannered here - the OP wasn't insulted, wasn't "disrespected", he was pretty politely told why his suggestion was bad. In fact, he was being helped to actually understand the game better and enjoy it more. I see absolutely no reason why anyone in their right mind would condone OP's rude behavior - so if you are frustrated for some reason about this thread, aim that frustration at the OP.
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Edward
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Although the tautological maxim that "You can play with any variant you wish as long as you enjoy it" applies to variants like the OP's, these forums exist because people are disseminating their message to a broader community, either to encourage others to adopt such a variant or to seek feedback on their variant. Either way, it seems perfectly justified to come in and point out the dramatic and profoundly negative impact this would have on a game of Dominion. Drawing Silver + 4 Copper on Turn 3 would go from a nice, planned opening to game over through no fault of your own.
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WDP
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theory wrote:
Although the tautological maxim that "You can play with any variant you wish as long as you enjoy it" applies to variants like the OP's, these forums exist because people are disseminating their message to a broader community, either to encourage others to adopt such a variant or to seek feedback on their variant. Either way, it seems perfectly justified to come in and point out the dramatic and profoundly negative impact this would have on a game of Dominion. Drawing Silver + 4 Copper on Turn 3 would go from a nice, planned opening to game over through no fault of your own.

I agree with you. And Mark's post up above to this effect was the only worthwhile reply the OP ever got in this thread (as near as we can see now). It was an actual response to the workability of the variant.

The others didn't address the variant at all but merely attacked his premise for creating and proposing this variant. There's no value in that. That's like somebody proposing a new kingdom card and getting shouted down (quite rudely, I might add) with "what's wrong with sticking with the game as published?" and "I'm tired of all these people who seem to want more variety in their games," and "Who do you think you are, Donald's apprentice? If there's a good kingdom card out there, it'll show up in one of the expansions eventually, so just shut up and wait for it!"

This sort of behavior stifles innovation and -- on this particular issue -- simply alienates people who want to get into playing Dominion.

baba44713 wrote:
Tiwsman wrote:
Of course, it's hardly surprising that the original post was deleted given the disrespect the original poster was clearly shown.


It *is* suprising. And annoying. And rather rude. Btw please show me this disrespect. Seriously, point it out.

That's a tall order, but I'll try!

Quote:
Tiwsman wrote:

Now those of us who would be content to enjoy the game we've bought by trying this fellow's variant are robbed of that opportunity.


No you are not. If you were little less eager to berate the BGG community and a little more patient, you would have actually read the thread and saw his suggestion in huge font just a few posts down.

Then what were you complaining about? If you were a little less eager to berate the original poster and a little more patient, you would have actually read the thread and seen that DeePee didn't start the thread at all.

And incidentally, I had read that but didn't understand it fully because of its unusual English. I would have liked to ask the original poster for clarification.

And the fact is, I have no beef against the BGG community. Just the louder Dominion fans on the Dominion forums. The larger BGG community is fantastic.

Now I should add that I think you're quite right that it would be nice to have a "post deleted" placeholder. (Sorry, I know I'm supposed to be showing you disrespect. I just can't help it. You had a good idea -- what was I supposed to do?)

Quote:
Personally, I see no reason why people who propose a bad variant shouldn't be told their suggestion is bad and why, especially if arguments are valid and clearly told without insults or bad manner. This is useful info for people actually wanting to try out a variant, it saves them time and frustration from trying out something that works badly and figuring that out for themselves. DELETING the original post is what is bad mannered here - the OP wasn't insulted, wasn't "disrespected", he was pretty politely told why his suggestion was bad. In fact, he was being helped to actually understand the game better and enjoy it more. I see absolutely no reason why anyone in their right mind would condone OP's rude behavior - so if you are frustrated for some reason about this thread, aim that frustration at the OP.

What Mark did (in the fifth reply to the OP) was decent. What everyone else did was not.

And either you personally or someone with a very similar avatar has been a chief offender with this sort of thing. Nearly every time someone proposes a variant to address the fact (and I think it's an uncontested fact) that many players lose their enjoyment of the game when they discover how effective the Big Money algorithm is (in all its varieties) against beginning players, you or someone with a very similar avatar gets on to complain about their premise for creating the variant rather than addressing the proposal.

You should stop doing that.

What is accomplished by this sort of behavior? Does it encourage people to continue playing Dominion? What I've read on this forum about this issue suggests otherwise. It appears that the Dominion forums here largely create a space for some players to caress one another's egos because they "get" the game while they all simultaneously attack and belittle and confuse anyone who "doesn't." This apparently leads a lot of players to walk away from Dominion altogether.

I can't imagine it benefits the average Dominion fan to create a world wherein most people abhor Dominion and its players except for an "elite" few. In my experience, it's hard enough to find people who'll play anything beyond the standard party games carried by major retailers. Alienating people who are showing interest in nonstandard games is not helpful to our hobby.

When people feel that Big Money is enough of a problem to warrant a house rule, they feel like the game as designed is not fun enough to continue playing, but they'd like to continue playing. These people should be encouraged.

But look at the first reply the OP got: You think there's a problem with the game, but you're wrong. The problem that occurs when you play Dominion is you, pal! If you didn't suck so bad as a player, you wouldn't be here whining.

Now look at the second reply he got: Oh, young grasshopper, I understand your frustration. All who have not achieved enlightenment struggle in darkness. But if the candle is burning then the food was cooked long ago. Keep striving, my child!

Now look at the third reply he got: You know, you're really an idiot. No, I mean it. You're a big idiot. First, you've obviously read the forum, but you're such an idiot that you don't even understand it. Second, you're such a royal idiot that you don't even know when you're having fun. Get with the program, idiot.

Who do you think is going to stick around reading more of this garbage to get down to the only post (Mark's) that actually addresses the proposed variant?

If you'll go check out sthrjo's ratings, you'll see he's substantially downgraded his rating of Dominion because of this issue (taking it from a B to a D, essentially). I would bet money that he rarely plays the game anymore. Should we all be happier that there's one less potential fan of the game? No! But it's easy to see how the way he was treated here sent him away.

What alternatives might people have chosen to keep him playing?

First, if some people honestly felt like the premise for his variant was so flawed that they couldn't countenance such discussion, they should have avoided the discussion. That's what you do when people want to talk about stuff you don't want to talk about -- especially online, where no one knows that you're ignoring them.

Second, if a player in the so-called third stage of development can accept the fact that Dominion does have a very real problem because a dull and robotic algorithm that essentially erases the differences among the 3,268,760 different games that come with the base set ends up driving players away from the game, then he will do all he can to help those players who seek ways to overcome this problem.

If a player proposes an unworkable variant, it could be good to point out (as Mark did) that the variant is unworkable -- but only if that's followed up by suggesting some more workable variants that accomplish the player's original goal.

Or if one believes there is no such workable variant, it might be useful to offer practical strategic advice for overcoming the problem. Saying, "this problem is no real problem at all and if you just read a little you'll learn that," or "welcome to the second stage, grasshopper, now play some more so you're worth talking to," is not practical strategic advice and it just drives people away.

And the fact is that practical strategic advice for this very problem is not all that easy to find anymore (if it ever was) -- because you have to wade through a lot of garbage posts where people say that this advice is really easy to find and people should just read the forum. If a Dominion fan really wants to help the hobby, he'll go find some good practical advice himself and link to it every time someone has this problem -- or keep quiet so he can stop filling the forums with garbage posts which only make the answers tougher to find.

Now if it's someone else with a black-and-white line drawing of a frog on his or her avatar who's out there spamming the variants forums with this nonsense, then I apologize for aiming this at you. Nevertheless, I hope all the Dominion fans on here will read this and decide to become better at promoting this game they love so much and eschew the robotic Attack, Belittle, and Confuse strategy they've developed over these past few years.
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Kevin Costello
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Oh boy... I think this post should have stayed dead, because this is going downhill fast.
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Dennison Milenkaya
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Actually, that was a lucid and very well-toned response. I applaud you, WDP. We do really need to learn that we're all friends here, much as we should receive each other with respect as anonymous players at some game convention, and more things unite us than divide us save our own attitudes.

I try as much as I can to offer useful feedback on card ideas. Variants aren't really my thing so I stay out of them. So, too, card ideas that don't really sing to me. Still, it is helpful to point out why something is flawed or uninteresting but if it's been said, it rarely needs to be stomped into the ground. A good Thumb's Up to suggest the post that said what you felt or near enough as makes no difference suffices. Almost always, a decent suggestion plays upon what the advice-seeker is trying to accomplish and not a freeze-out.
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