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A Game of Thrones: The Card Game» Forums » General

Subject: A game of Lost houses (from CCG to LCG) rss

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Gavin Schmitt
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I've been looking back at the CCG sets for Game of Thrones and I have to say, at least in Stark, a few sub-houses failed to make the transition to LCG. House Arryn and House Umber in particular have lost most of their characters and play mechanics. Heck, the LCG core set's Great Jon doesn't even have the House Umber trait!

While I can see a few Umber card's were rolled into Team Tully and Bolton got some of the former Umber's deadly traits, a lot of the anti-knight/"killing me makes me stronger" mechanics seem missing. Furthermore, House Bolton lost its stealth in the process and several Tully buffing Knights have yet to return.

Meanwhile, House Arryn's neutral deck, House-merge and 'when you're ahead I get stronger' cards are entirely missing from the LCG.

All in all, I'm impressed by how much effort FFG has kept putting into this franchise but still, a little surprised so much from the CCG era has not be rereleased. (and surprised that some of the theme and trait harmonies seem to have been omitted intentionally)

Does anyone think we'll ever see these legacy sub houses again?
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Dave Kudzma
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Perhaps in time. I thought I had read much of the CCG stuff was eliminated due to balance.
 
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Daniel Ach
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Rich_Z wrote:

Does anyone think we'll ever see these legacy sub houses again?


There's always a contingent on FFG forums that want House Arryn and House Tyrell to be playable "tribal" decks (aka by playing trait-based decks out of another house or Neutral House card, or even with an agenda), and there are also those who want additional expansions for those two houses (much like Princes of the Sun was for Martell and Kings of the Sea was for Greyjoy).

I think FFG made a design decision to limit the game to 6 houses, going off GRRM's input on which houses had the most prominent impact to the story. This left out Arryn and Tyrell. Obviously, there are still characters that have those traits, so they have to be stuck somewhere (which is why you see House Tyrell trait under both Lannister and Baratheon, for example.)

IMO if these house traits are explored it will not be as a separate house, since new and different house themes would be really hard to develop. (What would the Tyrell's house themes be?) If a new House Tyrell house card were created, it would really create a thematic paradox for characters that exist in other houses with that house trait.

I do think there is still considerable design space for these traits to be explored, and I think they will in time. There are many characters who have yet to be represented in the LCG. Lisa Arryn, Robert Arryn, Ser Lyn Corbray, Ser Lyonel Corbray, Ser Vardis Egen, Mace Tyrell, Willace Tyrell, Ser Garlan Tyrell, Garth the Gross, Horror and Slobber, The Queen of Thorns' "Right" and "Left", Butterbumps, etc.
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Stephen Sekela
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An interesting topic, and one that I always thought about reading into on the FFG forums, but due to the utter crappiness of the forum mechanics on FFG I never really bothered to research it that much...

Anyway, as a huge ASoIaF and AGoT LCG fan, I'd love to see the Arryns, Tyrells, Freys, etc get more representation. I never played the CCG and don't really care too much about how these houses (or sub-houses, or tribes, or whatever the heck you want to call them) were manifested back then (although I have perused some of the CCG databases from time to time).

One thing I have read about here and there was a reluctance to put too much "grey" into the decks at the expense of the "major" house-themed decks. I'm not saying this was "official" FFG policy or anything, and a lot of those discussions may just have been from players.

At any rate, I guess I could see problems with either game balance (with adding "minor houses") or "greying out" the card pool. Hopefully the design team can figure something out. Would love to see the Eyrie, the Twins, and all those other cool characters, events, etc in the game!
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fightcitymayor
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Zordren wrote:
An interesting topic, and one that I always thought about reading into on the FFG forums, but due to the utter crappiness of the forum mechanics on FFG I never really bothered to research it that much...
You can say that again. Now that FFG is making mad cash & hiring dozens of new people I hope they save some cash for a forum system that doesn't bite total ass.
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Gavin Schmitt
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If you aren't familiar with them in the CCG, cards with the House Umber, Tully and Bolton function much like the Tullys and Boltons do in the current LCG: they provide a Stark player with a particular personality and trait harmonious cards. (for boosting purposes)

The 17 CCG House Umber trait cards were a little all over the map mechanically, but generally provided to Deadly, Stalwart, anti-knight effects and a few umber-trait-card specific perks when characters left play. They also had a few effects based on the total number of Stark cards in play. On the downside, they didn't have many War crest characters and were usually expensive to play.

The 49 CCG House Arryn trait cards were pretty unique. A lot of them were double-affiliation or neutral but they had attachments for each house that specifically turned all of their House Arryn trait cards into that house's cards, which nulled out of house penalties. They had a lot of lands and the ability to attach casualties to their lands instead of the dead pile. You could even pre-select The Eyrie location card instead of playing in the setup phase. They had several if the opponent has 6 power, get a perk and 'choose 1 character from each player and make them fight' effects. All interesting stuff that could stand as a true neutral build (like Knight Watch and Wildlings) or form a core around which each House could tailor a deck.

While I certainly understand the challenge to balance all this, I don't think either of those additions would gray out the game. Providing House Stark with a 'killing my characters makes me angrier' set of trait-harmonious cards gives them a new build not used in other houses. ...and reprinting House Arryn as a 'friends with everyone' set has interesting potential too. (and fits the theme quite nicely)
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Gavin Schmitt
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As a quick addendum: I feel like Tribal/Trait based decks (or decks that have a lot of Trait harmony) already exist in the game. House Dayne perks within House Martell; House Bolton provides House Stark with it's take control abilities, deadly and War crests; House Tully provides House Stark with cheap cards, Knights, War crests, Tully trait perks and a fair bit of green challenge icons…

So, provided each of the 6 player Houses is kept mechanically specific, I'm not sure why adding new mechanical options (and wrapping those options around sets of traits for theme and organizational reasons) would be a bad thing?

I guess I find it strange that FFG appears to be cutting trait-harmonies out intentionally. Little stuff like: House Reed has 2 characters but the House Reed Army doesn't bear their trait, House Umber has 2 armies with it's trait but their lord Great Jon Umber does not, House Glover has a lord and an army that do seem gray for a stark deck and House Karstark, which had 4 characters in the CCG has been reduced to a Rookery in the LCG...

...just wonder why it seems like it's been omitted, if it just hasn't been revisited yet, or if it is something I only notice because I play a lot of Stark, which has several oddly defined (but few expanded) sub house traits (and had many more defined in the CCG)
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Max Fightmaster
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The traits will come back when FFG is ready to make them matter again (which, unfortunately, could be some time). Fun though they were, and much as we'd like to see them, they featured as gimmicks during various CCG blocks and aren't 'core' aspects of the game which are guaranteed to feature any time soon.

To elaborate; House Arryn and House Tyrell (and to a lesser extent, Umber) were introduced as sub-themes back in the days of the CCG being released in sets (rather than cycles of chapter packs). They were essentially the Shadow Cards / Seasons / Wildlings / Maesters of their day.

As such, I suspect that we won't see mass reprinting of the Arryn/Tyrell/Umber stuff that came before. For the section of players who transitioned from CCG to LCG, it'd be like sitting through a cycle of chapter packs twice. FFG wouldn't want to lose them as players by boring them with a rehash of what they already own/have played (interesting though it would be for all of us new players).

What we will probably see at some point in the future, especially because so many people want to see it, is a return of the Arryns/Tyrells/Freys etc in a more meaningful fashion. Most likely they'll be featuring as an agenda-driven 'tribe' (i.e. like Wildlings, Nights Watch, Maesters and The Brotherhood have) because that's what FFG seem to be designing a lot of for the LCG (and there's a whole separate discussion to be had about why that is). However, it's quite possible that they could feature in some other fashion entirely (whole new house seems unlikely; but having, say, Frey as a subset of Lannister would make some degree of sense).
 
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Gavin Schmitt
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probably right :) I'll just have to print my own home brew cards for them. (8 stark banner houses here i come!)
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Dave Kudzma
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Grift wrote:
The traits will come back when FFG is ready to make them matter again (which, unfortunately, could be some time). Fun though they were, and much as we'd like to see them, they featured as gimmicks during various CCG blocks and aren't 'core' aspects of the game which are guaranteed to feature any time soon.

To elaborate; House Arryn and House Tyrell (and to a lesser extent, Umber) were introduced as sub-themes back in the days of the CCG being released in sets (rather than cycles of chapter packs). They were essentially the Shadow Cards / Seasons / Wildlings / Maesters of their day.

As such, I suspect that we won't see mass reprinting of the Arryn/Tyrell/Umber stuff that came before. For the section of players who transitioned from CCG to LCG, it'd be like sitting through a cycle of chapter packs twice. FFG wouldn't want to lose them as players by boring them with a rehash of what they already own/have played (interesting though it would be for all of us new players).

What we will probably see at some point in the future, especially because so many people want to see it, is a return of the Arryns/Tyrells/Freys etc in a more meaningful fashion. Most likely they'll be featuring as an agenda-driven 'tribe' (i.e. like Wildlings, Nights Watch, Maesters and The Brotherhood have) because that's what FFG seem to be designing a lot of for the LCG (and there's a whole separate discussion to be had about why that is). However, it's quite possible that they could feature in some other fashion entirely (whole new house seems unlikely; but having, say, Frey as a subset of Lannister would make some degree of sense).


Two Umber trait cards appeared in the first cycle of packs in the LCG. In the final pack of the Oldtown cycle another appears as a Maester.
 
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Gavin Schmitt
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locusshifter wrote:


Two Umber trait cards appeared in the first cycle of packs in the LCG. In the final pack of the Oldtown cycle another appears as a Maester.


I knew about Vanguard Scouts and Berzerkers but didn't know about the Maester. Weird... the Umbers don't strike me as a very maestery friendly people ;)
 
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Dave Kudzma
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Rich_Z wrote:
locusshifter wrote:


Two Umber trait cards appeared in the first cycle of packs in the LCG. In the final pack of the Oldtown cycle another appears as a Maester.


I knew about Vanguard Scouts and Berzerkers but didn't know about the Maester. Weird... the Umbers don't strike me as a very maestery friendly people



Maester of Last Hearth

Type: Character House: Stark

Cost: 3 Strength: 3 Icons: Intrigue, Power

Game Text:

Maester. House Umber.

Your Creature characters get +1 STR.

If it is Winter, Maester of Last Hearth gains: "Response: Kneel Maester of Last Hearth to save a Creature from being killed or discarded from play."

Crest: Learned
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Max Fightmaster
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locusshifter wrote:
Two Umber trait cards appeared in the first cycle of packs in the LCG. In the final pack of the Oldtown cycle another appears as a Maester.


That's true.

We also currently have three Arryns and ten Tyrells.

All I'm saying is that those traits won't become useful/meaningful until FFG decides its time to feature any of the houses as a sub-theme again (which I really hope they do).
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Gavin Schmitt
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Grift wrote:
All I'm saying is that those traits won't become useful/meaningful until FFG decides its time to feature any of the houses as a sub-theme again (which I really hope they do).


I just hope FFG implements them in a mechanically coherent way that also gives the sub house/trait a thematic feel, instead of misc. effects that are only useful in 1-2 card support roles for the primary house.

anyway, I'm still gunna home brew a few stark sets. if anything interesting comes out of it i'll post to the image gallery :)
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Max Fightmaster
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Rich_Z wrote:
if anything interesting comes out of it i'll post to the image gallery :)


Please do. That would be awesome.
 
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Stephen Sekela
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Rich_Z wrote:
Grift wrote:
All I'm saying is that those traits won't become useful/meaningful until FFG decides its time to feature any of the houses as a sub-theme again (which I really hope they do).


I just hope FFG implements them in a mechanically coherent way that also gives the sub house/trait a thematic feel, instead of misc. effects that are only useful in 1-2 card support roles for the primary house.


I'm optomistic they'll get around to it. I mean, there was like one "clansman" character and maybe a couple "dothraki" characters in the Core Set, but it wasn't until the last cycle that a bunch of cards came out to give them any sort of synergy or signifigance.

(just citing those as loose examples)
 
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Gavin Schmitt
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I'm actually pretty close to done the Umber "fan-spansion" :) 20 cards with the house's trait that (I hope) capture some Umber theme AND build on mechanics FFG has introduces around the house.

I should be able to finish printable card art in a week or two. Anyone interested in helping my meta test these out? (if people Like them, I'll start in on House Karstark and Mormont, which feel like they should each get 10 cards in their own fan-spansion :) )
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I just want o caution you from making the same mistakes others in the past have. In no way should you make money, or receive anything in trade for these when they are complete, nor provide a means for anyone else to o so. Don't use art or other copywritten, reserved, or trademarked images, symbols, or names.

This way FFG. Won't have any cause to ask you to stop or have them taken down if they are posted.
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Gavin Schmitt
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I appreciate making this point in the thread, though I'd hope most people would know that profiting off another company's product is illegal (and unethical)

The cards are purely for personal amusement/desire to field a House Umber, House Karstark and White Harbor deck in my meta's civil war play. For obviously reasons, the cards use FFG's card background templates as a base and misc. modified fantasy artwork (since I have no incentive to make 20 paintings I can't profit from).

If FFG feels that damages their brand, it's their right to have it taken down and I wouldn't post it again. (Likewise if George R R Martin asked to take them down - it's ultimately his brand too)

Just thought I'd share the cards with the community, since I was making them for my own meta ;)
 
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Gavin Schmitt
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I posted the first 13 fan cards for house umber over here: http://thatnewdadsmell.blogspot.com/2011/11/game-of-what-ifs...

Obviously not for sale or trade ;) just my 'what if' for the house umber trait
 
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Andrew Rice
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Looks good - just a couple of Typos (Cavarly and Woodesmen).
 
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Gavin Schmitt
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Ugh and "man" = "may" on crowfood scouts...
I'll post the remaining 7 when i get a chance
 
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Daniel Ach
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Very interesting ideas. I like some of the things you did with a very undeveloped house keyword.
 
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Gavin Schmitt
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I posted the 3 loation cards [url]http://thatnewdadsmell.blogspot.com/2011/11/house-umber-fans... [/url] will post the next 4. in a bit
 
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