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Subject: "Non-Wargamers," are you enjoying Space Empires? rss

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Mark Buetow
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So I know that many who ordered Space Empires might not classify themselves as wargamers or may not regularly play wargames. So if that describes you more or less and you've played SE now, what do you think?

I think it's great that GMT seems to have hit a "crossover" homerun with SE and I'm excited to see many who might not play a traditional wargame take a look at the genre with SE.
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mateenyweeny
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I'd say that I'm a "light" wargamer (Twilight Struggle, TI3, C&C:A) and am super excited to try this out as a dip in the pool of more meaty hex and counter war games.

Unfortunately my copy hasn't arrived yet and I can only wait patiently!
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Chris Larkin
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Non-Wargamers are just closet Wargamers anyway... so I'm sure everyone will love it.
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S Marstiller
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Not a wargamer and I love it.

Does this mean Space Empires is the Settlers of Catan of wargames?
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James Fung
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Question: how many non-wargamers that didn't like SE:4X do you expect to read and reply to this thread? I think you have a valid inquiry, but your method of polling may provide biased results.
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Bob
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I've been enjoying it but I've been following it for a while too.

My wife and brother both had a similar reaction when they first approached it:

"Man that's a lot of little pieces"

But after a few turns they both really got to liking it. My brother immediately wanted to play again.

None of us are wargamers, though I don't know if we subscribe to the euro camp either.
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Joshua Wright
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Very little experience. LOVING it. Played the Doomsday Machine scenario three times now and got a small map 2 player game in that got ended too soon due to time constraints. The game is pretty awesome. Now to trick the wife into playing...
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Mark Buetow
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fusag wrote:
Question: how many non-wargamers that didn't like SE:4X do you expect to read and reply to this thread? I think you have a valid inquiry, but your method of polling may provide biased results.


Yeah, well I'm not really looking for scientific data here, just some conversation about the game from the perspective of those who aren't traditionally "war gamers."

In any case, at least according to the thread title, they could answer "no" and, if they felt like it, say why.
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Mark Buetow
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I'd be interested to hear also about what folks think of the components. I think SE took some flak for not looking like a Euro or well produce AT specimen but I tend to think that those considerations seem to fade when people actually play the game.
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S Marstiller
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I was underwhelmed by the quality of the counters. Very difficult for me to punch and lots of fuzzy corners. A few deep space counters have colored edges that make them essentially marked.

I was bummed at first but then I played and didn't really care anymore.

Not to say that if a deluxe version came out I wouldn't jump in line.
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Darrell Hanning
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Higher quality counters in a wargame are a bit of a annoyance. If you make them thicker, and you have any sort of stacking in excess of a couple of counters, thicker counters give you these teetering piles that players are trying to move. And when they tip, everyone gets to see how many BCs you had tucked away in there.

As to frayed edges, think about clipping the smallest portion of each corner with a set of nail clippers. Do this for a game or two, and you will find yourself hopelessly addicted.
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Hugh Grotius
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As wargames go, these counters are pretty high-quality. As Darrell said, once you've clipped the counters, they'll look and feel a lot nicer. At least, they do to me. These counters clip very nicely.

Incidentally, if you really want to be fanatical about clipping corners, you'll want to make a "jig" to help guide you when you clip the corners. I sanded down the corner of a CD jewel case, and I stick a counter inside it to expose a small corner of the counter; then I clip with nail clippers.

I'm a wargamer, so I'm not the target of the OP's informal poll, but so far I'm really enjoying SE4x.
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David Abel
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marstiller wrote:
A few deep space counters have colored edges that make them essentially marked.


Design 101: Don't put a line/rule next to cut line. No matter how careful you are, it will never appear even. I would have preferred a big colored dot in the center instead of a box around the edge.

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S Marstiller
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DarrellKH wrote:
Higher quality counters in a wargame are a bit of a annoyance. If you make them thicker, and you have any sort of stacking in excess of a couple of counters, thicker counters give you these teetering piles that players are trying to move. And when they tip, everyone gets to see how many BCs you had tucked away in there.


Are you finding you have large stacks in this game?

I've only played solo and 2-player but with the number counters haven't run into any large stacks.

As someone who has never played a wargame before it is very possible I'm not doing something right.
 
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Chris Wilcoxon
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marstiller wrote:
DarrellKH wrote:
Higher quality counters in a wargame are a bit of a annoyance. If you make them thicker, and you have any sort of stacking in excess of a couple of counters, thicker counters give you these teetering piles that players are trying to move. And when they tip, everyone gets to see how many BCs you had tucked away in there.


Are you finding you have large stacks in this game?

I've only played solo and 2-player but with the number counters haven't run into any large stacks.

As someone who has never played a wargame before it is very possible I'm not doing something right.


Well, even a fleet of only a couple of ship types is at least 4 markers (one each for the groups and then the ship markers) tall. So if one were to go for a truly balanced fleet it could easily be 10 markers or so.
 
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S Marstiller
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divedeeper wrote:
Well, even a fleet of only a couple of ship types is at least 4 markers (one each for the groups and then the ship markers) tall. So if one were to go for a truly balanced fleet it could easily be 10 markers or so.


So am I supposed to be stacking all counters in the same hex on top of each other? I've just been stacking the ship counters on top of a number counter. Am I a complete idiot?
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Mark Buetow
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marstiller wrote:
divedeeper wrote:
Well, even a fleet of only a couple of ship types is at least 4 markers (one each for the groups and then the ship markers) tall. So if one were to go for a truly balanced fleet it could easily be 10 markers or so.


So am I supposed to be stacking all counters in the same hex on top of each other? I've just been stacking the ship counters on top of a number counter. Am I a complete idiot?


Not at all! And most of us probably don't. I like to see how many groups are in a hex and that's open information, I think. In any case, a large fleet will still crowd the hex. I printed up the fleet markers in the file section but likely won't use them because I like the large fleets sliding around the board. Well, unless they're coming in my direction!

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Jeff Lingwall
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Here's my non-wargamer perspective. The counters were a nightmare. But I survived The game is towards the upper limit of complexity of a game that I want to play. I agree with some other people that the default rules should be instant tech upgrades- it eliminates a lot of bookkeeping and a lot of the complexity on the gameboard. I'll play it that way.

I enjoy it, though. I appreciate the solitaire scenarios, because this is probably too heavy to ask my wife to play very often or to get a local group of eurogamers together for.
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jlingwal wrote:
Here's my non-wargamer perspective. The counters were a nightmare. But I survived


As a wargamer, the counters are fine!

But they WERE more difficult than recently usual IMHO to remove from the cardboard frames.
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As far as gameplay goes, I see this as solid Ameritrash. I mean this in absolutely the best way possible.
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I am not a wargamer (other than about a dozen plays of Twilight Struggle and 1 play of Washington's War), and I love the game!

I was sold on the game by a read through the rules. It appeared to be streamlined and I haven't been disappointed.

And to the guy who wanted to get his wife involved, my advice is to either play the solo scenarios cooperatively with her, or download Bob Seifert's document in the files section that describes some cooperative scenarios. My wife has played 3 games with me cooperatively. Don't be afraid to play a game over a couple of nights as well. That way she can learn slowly along with you. She still doesn't want direct confrontation but she has enjoyed the game as well.

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MajorOracle wrote:
I am not a wargamer (other than about a dozen plays of Twilight Struggle and 1 play of Washington's War), and I love the game!

I was sold on the game by a read through the rules. It appeared to be streamlined and I haven't been disappointed.

And to the guy who wanted to get his wife involved, my advice is to either play the solo scenarios cooperatively with her, or download Bob Seifert's document in the files section that describes some cooperative scenarios. My wife has played 3 games with me cooperatively. Don't be afraid to play a game over a couple of nights as well. That way she can learn slowly along with you. She still doesn't want direct confrontation but she has enjoyed the game as well.



How did co-op go? I havn't had time to play test it much yet and am anxious for feedback.
 
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I don't consider myself a wargamer on a non-wargammer. I'm just a gamer.

I do generally not like dice fest type games like A&A. Just too much randomness. I prefer Euro's usually because they have more strategy and decisions and replayability.

However, I have 3 plays of this now and really enjoy it. It has a civ type aspect to it and quite a bit of decision making as you figure out how best to allocate your resources and also when to go on the offense and when to go on the defense.

As far as tech upgrades and record keeping... it's not that bad. I have only played with the standard tech upgrade rules and didn't see a problem with the record keeping. Yes, it took a 1/2 a minute to check the tech on each ship before a battle... but not a big deal.

BOb
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wifwendell wrote:
jlingwal wrote:
Here's my non-wargamer perspective. The counters were a nightmare. But I survived


As a wargamer, the counters are fine!

But they WERE more difficult than recently usual IMHO to remove from the cardboard frames.


I was thinking the same thing, and experiencing the same thing, although I thought maybe it'd just been that long since I'd had a wargame with a lot of traditional countersheets.

My issues with the counters:
-- The counters don't seem to be cut deeply enough. A hobby knife has proved to be almost required. Nubs are to be expected, but I've had at least a couple tear. Given how many of the counters have a "secret" side, this is (theoretically) a significant issue (at least when we're talking board games rather than, say, world peace).
-- As others have noted, some counters are essentially "marked" because of color bands. I also tore one deep-space marker that I think I can probably fix adequately enough with a Sharpie.

If nothing else, I would suggest GMT look into a deeper cut for a second printing. I'd also suggest that the backs and fronts be flipped: the backs seem more prone to tearing, yet the back on these counters is typically the "hidden" side. Slight imperfections on the "non-hidden" side wouldn't be a big deal.
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James Fung
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jpat wrote:
If nothing else, I would suggest GMT look into a deeper cut for a second printing. I'd also suggest that the backs and fronts be flipped: the backs seem more prone to tearing, yet the back on these counters is typically the "hidden" side. Slight imperfections on the "non-hidden" side wouldn't be a big deal.

Generally, wargame companies only make a second printing of really popular games. Because they operate on different scales as more mainstream games, they make smaller print runs and inventory is an issue (GMT sometimes lowers the price of older, less popular games to clear space for newer games in their pipeline).
 
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