Recommend
4 
 Thumb up
 Hide
22 Posts

Sekigahara: The Unification of Japan» Forums » Rules

Subject: When is a Siege Resolved? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Adam Parker
Australia
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Great game design makes the complex simple, replayability maximum, and abstraction credible.
badge
It’s not how well you roll that counts but how well the dice suit the game.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hi Matt and other knowing ones:

In another thread I wrote that if a defender chooses to move into a Castle, the Siege cannot be resolved until the next turn.

This is based on rule 8.9.2 - If the active player owns the castle and chooses to remain inside, then no battle or Siege Combat occurs in that location in that phase.


The question is, who is the "Active Player"?

The only other situation this could relate to, is a defender retreating into an enemy Castle's location and the enemy then, elects to move inside its Castle. If the "Active Player" is meant to refer to the original attacker, this would make sense!

Thanks.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mary Weisbeck
United States
Black Hawk
South Dakota
flag msg tools
"Blow up the damned ship, Jean-Luc!"
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I admit to being new to war games but the "active player" has always been the one who is taking their turn. In this instance that would be whoever is doing the Move and Combat phases (the attacker).

In the other thread you mentioned that it doesn't make sense to run into the castle rather than stand and fight if the attacker is the active player. I've thought about this and see several advantages that might make it worth getting beat on without the chance to play a card.

1) The attacker cannot play a gun or cavalry for their Special Attack.
2) You would still lose 1 block per 7 Impact but not the extra block for losing a battle.
3) You would get to draw an extra card per block you lose rather than for every 2 you lose.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Workman
United States
Phoenix
Arizona
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Right right right. Resolved in the turn declared.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
JR
Canada
Victoria
British Columbia
flag msg tools
Memento ferrugo
badge
Memento ferrugo
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sodaklady wrote:
I admit to being new to war games but the "active player" has always been the one who is taking their turn. In this instance that would be whoever is doing the Move and Combat phases (the attacker).

In the other thread you mentioned that it doesn't make sense to run into the castle rather than stand and fight if the attacker is the active player. I've thought about this and see several advantages that might make it worth getting beat on without the chance to play a card it.

1) The attacker cannot play a gun or cavalry for their Special Attack.
2) You would still lose 1 block per 7 Impact but not the extra block for losing a battle.
3) You would get to draw an extra card per block you lose rather than for every 2 you lose.


I reckon the decision of whether to allow yourself to come under siege or to stand and fight would be motivated by your hand of cards. If you're meagre little force happens to be 6-Mon strong and you've got the cards to entice them to fight, then standing and fighting could be a smart move against an attacking force that looks larger but might not have the motivation to fight in strength. On the other hand if you know full well you're not going to stand much of a chance due to lack of cards, then running into the keep makes lots of sense.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Parker
Australia
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Great game design makes the complex simple, replayability maximum, and abstraction credible.
badge
It’s not how well you roll that counts but how well the dice suit the game.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sodaklady wrote:
... the "active player" has always been the one who is taking their turn. In this instance that would be whoever is doing the Move and Combat phases (the attacker).


I hope we can get something official on this soon, as it really affects play (and hadn't bothered me at all till now )!

Rule 8.9.2 states - "If the active player owns the castle and chooses to remain inside, then no battle or Siege Combat occurs in this location in this phase".

Here's the kicker.

Rule 8.9.1 states that - "the side that owns the castle is the side that had unit(s) in the location first before combat broke out".

Therefore if the "Active Player" in rule 8.9.2 is meant to be the side that is currently moving/attacking in the turn, the only way it can "choose to remain in the Castle", is if a defender retreats into its Castle location.

Because per rule 8.8.5 Retreats into Combat - "It is possible to retreat into another battle (or Overrun). If so, execute that Battle immediately and resolve its consequences. The retreating blocks are the attacker for this new battle".


My gut feel is that the Siege rules are simply meant to say:

"Once a Siege commences, it can't be resolved until the turn after".

And not:

"If a defender retreats onto your Castle, you can choose to remain in it, and the Siege won't be resolved until it's the next player's turn".

Be interesting to see what the official answer is. But it hugely changes the way the game plays!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Parker
Australia
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Great game design makes the complex simple, replayability maximum, and abstraction credible.
badge
It’s not how well you roll that counts but how well the dice suit the game.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
HUGE! surprise
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mary Weisbeck
United States
Black Hawk
South Dakota
flag msg tools
"Blow up the damned ship, Jean-Luc!"
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Adam Parker wrote:
Rule 8.9.2 states - "If the active player owns the castle and chooses to remain inside, then no battle or Siege Combat occurs in this location in this phase".

Here's the kicker.

Rule 8.9.1 states that - "the side that owns the castle is the side that had unit(s) in the location first before combat broke out".

Therefore if the "Active Player" in rule 8.9.2 is meant to be the side that is currently moving/attacking in the turn, the only way it can "choose to remain in the Castle", is if a defender retreats into its Castle location

That's just it; I don't think the "active player" that Rule 8.9.2 is referring is the one who is moving/attacking when the siege begins. I think it's talking about what happens when it's the besieged player's turn to be the active player.

Tokugawa's Turn: Ishida is in a location with a castle when Tokugawa Moves there. Rather than battle, Ishida moves into the castle. Tokugawa then starts his Combat phase and attacks the besieged blocks. Ishida can't fight back but his force isn't eliminated. End of turn. The two forces remain in the location together.

Ishida's Turn: He moves any other blocks he wants but cannot move the besieged blocks according to rule 8.9.6. When it's time for the Combat phase, he does not declare combat in the location with the besieged blocks according to rule 8.9.2. Nothing happens there until Tokugawa's turn.

To me, this makes perfect sense. The rest of the rules are very clear so I think you have to take them just as they are without trying to second-guess them.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Parker
Australia
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Great game design makes the complex simple, replayability maximum, and abstraction credible.
badge
It’s not how well you roll that counts but how well the dice suit the game.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sodaklady wrote:
I think it's talking about what happens when it's the besieged player's turn to be the active player.

Ishida's Turn: He moves any other blocks he wants but cannot move the besieged blocks according to rule 8.9.6. When it's time for the Combat phase, he does not declare combat in the location with the besieged blocks according to rule 8.9.2. Nothing happens there until Tokugawa's turn.


I think that this is implied in rule 8.9.6 "Besieged Blocks", Mary.

8.9.2 seems to speak about "Declaring" a Siege. The phrase "remain in a Castle", seems to be the designer's way of saying "move into a Castle". He uses it in 8.9.1 in this manner.

I sent Matt a note to see if he could drop by with an answer.

PS: I wonder who of us is going to get their spouses into playing this one first?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dan Poole
United States
Goldsboro
North Carolina
flag msg tools
Udu Wudu
badge
Udu Wudu
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
8.9.2
When combat is designated, and not before, the side who owns the castle may choose whether to be inside or outside of the castle. If outside - a battle, if inside - a siege,

The rules are very clear. You siege if the defender goes in the castle. The rules do not state anywhere that combat is delayed for a turn.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Parker
Australia
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Great game design makes the complex simple, replayability maximum, and abstraction credible.
badge
It’s not how well you roll that counts but how well the dice suit the game.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
voynix wrote:
8.9.2
When combat is designated, and not before, the side who owns the castle may choose whether to be inside or outside of the castle. If outside - a battle, if inside - a siege


Yes Dan, we know that, now please explain the last sentence of that same rules section, which has to be read in context of the entirety of that rules section:

8.9.2 - If the active player owns the castle and chooses to "remain inside" [see 8.9.1 for 1st use of that phrase], then no battle or Siege Combat occurs in that location in that phase.

[] = My note.

Simply put: "If the defender elects to go inside his Castle, there is no Siege Combat that turn".

That's how it reads to me - are any testers able to confirm if Matt is tied up maybe due to the holidays?

Thanks.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Parker
Australia
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Great game design makes the complex simple, replayability maximum, and abstraction credible.
badge
It’s not how well you roll that counts but how well the dice suit the game.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
A quick p.s. to the above, the reason why I believe the rule reads this way is historical.

If you're going to attack a stack of just 1-2 enemy units, there's a fair chance you're aiming to win if your stack is bigger. Remember that in a Castle location there are no Overruns so your attacking stack can be huge if you like.

Therefore, if the enemy goes inside its Castle to let the attacker immediately play unopposed cards capable of inflicting 7-14 Impact - wiping them out, the outcome would mean the resolution of a siege within just 1 week of game time. I'm under the impression that sieges took much longer than that.

A lone Sanada at Ueda Castle would not be able to delay anyone!

Anyway, if I'm wrong, I'm happy with that too but the interpretation of this rule is the difference between a very quick game and a game taking a couple of hours. More importantly, of strategy - and the usage of forces.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steffan O'Sullivan
United States
Plymouth
NH
flag msg tools
"To be honorable and just is our only defense against men without honor or justice." -Diogenes of Sinope
badge
"No one ever influenced Tolkien - you might as well try to influence a bandersnatch." -C.S. Lewis
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't understand your issue with the rule. It seems very clear to me.

The active player is always the player whose turn it is. So if you besiege my castle on your turn and it's not resolved by the end of your turn, when my turn comes around, I'm the active player. If I choose to remain inside, then there is no combat on my turn. If I wanted to fight, I'd have to come out of the castle.

That sentence has *nothing* to do with the first turn in which you, as the active player, enter my space with a castle and I retreat inside. It only has to do with subsequent turns when I'm the active player. Remaining in the castle is not the same as moving into the castle and I don't understand why you are confusing the terms.
12 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dan Poole
United States
Goldsboro
North Carolina
flag msg tools
Udu Wudu
badge
Udu Wudu
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The last sentence is clear. If it's your turn and you are besieged in a castle, you may either:

A. Come out and fight or
B. Stay inside and do nothing

That has nothing to do with the besieging player.

Edit: Steffan explained it more clearly in the above post
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Parker
Australia
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Great game design makes the complex simple, replayability maximum, and abstraction credible.
badge
It’s not how well you roll that counts but how well the dice suit the game.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Wait one - getting an answer.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Parker
Australia
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Great game design makes the complex simple, replayability maximum, and abstraction credible.
badge
It’s not how well you roll that counts but how well the dice suit the game.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Andy Lewis at GMT kindly chipped in with an official answer (hopefully Matt is enjoying the long weekend):

Adam,

If you have not received an answer from Matt yet, I would say yes the siege is resolved immediately. Read the first sentence of 8.9.1.

What rule 8.9.2 is trying to say is that a player that is besieged does not need to initiate a combat in that location when it is their turn.

Active player is defined in the first sentence of the 2nd paragraph under 8.2.1. The attacker is the active player.



I replied:

Thanks so much Andy - I see that definition now, 8.2.1: "The Active Player (the attacker) starts the battle by making the first deployment. Next the defender can respond...."

I think maybe Matt can take the words: "owns the castle" out of that last sentence in 8.9.2: "If the active player owns the castle and chooses to remain inside, then no battle or Siege Combat occurs in this location this phase".

As the player already inside the castle must own it! And maybe move the whole sentence into 8.9.6.



Thanks all for your input too. I could not remember seeing that definition for "Active Player".

I'm going to adjust that re-evaluation thread of mine, and the good news is - I can play this game again under totally new rules (for me) right now (well soon - its 2am here)! This will really open the map and strategy up. Worried for Sanada though.

Mary, Justin, Brian, Dan, Steffan - cheers
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Workman
United States
Phoenix
Arizona
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
>Mary, Justin, Brian, Dan, Steffan - cheers

Kanpai!

...or I should say... かんぱい!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher Donovan
United States
Louisville
Kentucky
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Adam Parker wrote:
I'm going to adjust that re-evaluation thread of mine, and the good news is - I can play this game again under totally new rules (for me) right now (well soon - its 2am here)! This will really open the map and strategy up. Worried for Sanada though.


Have you played against an opponent yet or just solo? It's a very different experience. There is no guarantee a besieger can generate 7 points of impact without using any special attack bonuses, let alone 14. If that's all the besieger does that turn, possibly, but the defender gains cards relative to the attacker, giving him more options later in the turn. You often don't want to risk burning all your good cards on a siege, and you don't want to park all your cavalry and gun blocks in a siege where they do little good.

Sanada does just fine with a couple of blocks to keep him company - 21 points of impact, without recourse to special attacks, is an enourmous investment for the besieger.

On the other hand, there is a good reason to prolong a siege as the besieger, if you have one going and it's your turn you can use up some cards in a siege just before an important battle elsewhere just to cycle cards hoping for a more useful draw. You don't even need to inflict enough impact to destroy a block - denying the defender any card draws.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Parker
Australia
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Great game design makes the complex simple, replayability maximum, and abstraction credible.
badge
It’s not how well you roll that counts but how well the dice suit the game.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Zerosum wrote:
On the other hand, there is a good reason to prolong a siege as the besieger, if you have one going and it's your turn you can use up some cards in a siege just before an important battle elsewhere just to cycle cards hoping for a more useful draw. You don't even need to inflict enough impact to destroy a block - denying the defender any card draws.


Definitely.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt Calkins
United States
Arlington
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sodaklady wrote:
Adam Parker wrote:
Rule 8.9.2 states - "If the active player owns the castle and chooses to remain inside, then no battle or Siege Combat occurs in this location in this phase".

Here's the kicker.

Rule 8.9.1 states that - "the side that owns the castle is the side that had unit(s) in the location first before combat broke out".

Therefore if the "Active Player" in rule 8.9.2 is meant to be the side that is currently moving/attacking in the turn, the only way it can "choose to remain in the Castle", is if a defender retreats into its Castle location

That's just it; I don't think the "active player" that Rule 8.9.2 is referring is the one who is moving/attacking when the siege begins. I think it's talking about what happens when it's the besieged player's turn to be the active player.

Tokugawa's Turn: Ishida is in a location with a castle when Tokugawa Moves there. Rather than battle, Ishida moves into the castle. Tokugawa then starts his Combat phase and attacks the besieged blocks. Ishida can't fight back but his force isn't eliminated. End of turn. The two forces remain in the location together.

Ishida's Turn: He moves any other blocks he wants but cannot move the besieged blocks according to rule 8.9.6. When it's time for the Combat phase, he does not declare combat in the location with the besieged blocks according to rule 8.9.2. Nothing happens there until Tokugawa's turn.

To me, this makes perfect sense. The rest of the rules are very clear so I think you have to take them just as they are without trying to second-guess them.


I'm late to this thread, but want to add my clarification.

The active player is the player whose turn it is.

Sieges can be prosecuted on the same move that the attacker reaches the castle.

I quoted the explanation by sodaklady, above, because it is perfect. Actually, perfect except for one tiny detail: the active player who is defending in a siege must "declare" the location at some point in the combat phase, but can then choose to remain inside the castle and thus avoid hostilities. (It can matter whether you've declared a location yet, should units retreat into that location from another combat site.)
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Peter Collins
Canada
Prince Rupert
British Columbia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Rules questions...
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ο "Ασβός"
Greece
Thessaloniki
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
An active player cannot move through an enemy castle if
that castle has at least one unit. There will be a combat or a siege. Right?

...

But if a player did a siege to a castle in his previous turn and that is not resolved. The defender in his turn decided to stay in so nothing happens. Can the attacker in his next turn choose to move away or he must stay there until the siege finishes?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
bertrand d
France
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Sur_Johnny wrote:
An active player cannot move through an enemy castle if
that castle has at least one unit. There will be a combat or a siege. Right?

...

But if a player did a siege to a castle in his previous turn and that is not resolved. The defender in his turn decided to stay in so nothing happens. Can the attacker in his next turn choose to move away or he must stay there until the siege finishes?


He can move away.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.