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Subject: Screwing around at work... rss

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Bryan Cooper
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From another thread where folks were IM'ing a Superman v Batman argument at the office...

MisterCranky and I got into a tangle about managing folks that seemed off topic from the original thread, but worth the possibility of continued debate.

MisterCranky wrote:
I honestly don't think I can overstate how rapidly I'd fire my staff if they sat around the job pissing and moaning about this sort of bullshit.

Good thing I don't create jobs, and neither does anybody else!


MisterCranky wrote:
MasterGeek wrote:


Psh, two things Cranky.
Show me someone who claims they're 100% productive 100% of the time and I'll show you a liar.

and

The reason I can get away with little debates occasionaly is because I'm known for putting work ahead of everything else and taking a few minutes to fart around only if there's really nothing else to do. And even then, only for a few minutes.


If this were a work document that you were putting forth at 1:54 in the afternoon (Central time) I'd fire you for the typo, too. I've now fired you twice, and it hasn't even been a week!


MisterCranky wrote:
bcooperok wrote:

Exactly the reason, I'd never hire you to manage a staff.


I don't think that's the reason at all. I think the reason, as we both know, is that you don't do anything professionally in which I'd be even slightly interested. Let's talk to all those minions that you've hired to "manage a staff", Mr. Rockefeller, and see just exactly what they think of your mad skills....


Feel free, captain, but making it about me won't change the fact that you get better work out of intrinsically motivated people than fearful people. You get intrinsically motivated people by setting the horizon and expecting them to reach it, then getting the fuck out of their way. And part of getting the fuck out of their way is by not giving a shit if they argue about comic books in IM.

Fire the ones who don't make it to the horizon, not the ones who took a circuitous route getting there.
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Boaty McBoatface
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bcooperok wrote:
From another thread where folks were IM'ing a Superman v Batman argument at the office...

MisterCranky and I got into a tangle about managing folks that seemed off topic from the original thread, but worth the possibility of continued debate.

MisterCranky wrote:
I honestly don't think I can overstate how rapidly I'd fire my staff if they sat around the job pissing and moaning about this sort of bullshit.

Good thing I don't create jobs, and neither does anybody else!


MisterCranky wrote:
MasterGeek wrote:


Psh, two things Cranky.
Show me someone who claims they're 100% productive 100% of the time and I'll show you a liar.

and

The reason I can get away with little debates occasionaly is because I'm known for putting work ahead of everything else and taking a few minutes to fart around only if there's really nothing else to do. And even then, only for a few minutes.


If this were a work document that you were putting forth at 1:54 in the afternoon (Central time) I'd fire you for the typo, too. I've now fired you twice, and it hasn't even been a week!


MisterCranky wrote:
bcooperok wrote:

Exactly the reason, I'd never hire you to manage a staff. :)


I don't think that's the reason at all. I think the reason, as we both know, is that you don't do anything professionally in which I'd be even slightly interested. Let's talk to all those minions that you've hired to "manage a staff", Mr. Rockefeller, and see just exactly what they think of your mad skills....


Feel free, captain, but making it about me won't change the fact that you get better work out of intrinsically motivated people than fearful people. You get intrinsically motivated people by setting the horizon and expecting them to reach it, then getting the fuck out of their way. And part of getting the fuck out of their way is by not giving a shit if they argue about comic books in IM.

Fire the ones who don't make it to the horizon, not the ones who took a circuitous route getting there.


If it gets in the way of work surley its a bad thing ?
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Why the hell would you waste my time by pulling me into another thread about this useless topic? You're fired. If I'm going to have an imaginary firm with an imaginary staff and discuss the imaginary firings in as worthless a socio-economic debate arena as Chit Chat, then you can be damn sure that I'll fire them for whatever the fuck I want, and neither you, nor the person who invented the term "human capital" is going to stop me.
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Hey, MisterCranky got promoted to captain. Congratulations!
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Bryan Cooper
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slatersteven wrote:
If it gets in the way of work surley its a bad thing ?


Why? Because you aren't getting 100% all the time?

Swiping some of Daniel Pink's thought here on motivation and efficacy of a workplace, but studies have consistently shown that people respond to autonomy over any 'carrot and stick' approach.

You will find people work harder for someone who sets the goal and expects the goal to be made but doesn't get all bent out of shape when somebody is doing something 'off-goal'. It isn't important to have people working on the goal 100% all the time, it is important to make the goal.
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Bryan Cooper
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MisterCranky wrote:
Why the hell would you waste my time by pulling me into another thread about this useless topic? You're fired. If I'm going to have an imaginary firm with an imaginary staff and discuss the imaginary firings in as worthless a socio-economic debate arena as Chit Chat, then you can be damn sure that I'll fire them for whatever the fuck I want, and neither you, nor the person who invented the term "human capital" is going to stop me.


And yet here you are.

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Bryan Cooper
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MisterCranky wrote:
Why the hell would you waste my time by pulling me into another thread about this useless topic? You're fired. If I'm going to have an imaginary firm with an imaginary staff and discuss the imaginary firings in as worthless a socio-economic debate arena as Chit Chat, then you can be damn sure that I'll fire them for whatever the fuck I want, and neither you, nor the person who invented the term "human capital" is going to stop me.


Eh. Marshall can't let an evolution debate go by, I can't let a "human capital" debate go by.
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Boaty McBoatface
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bcooperok wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
If it gets in the way of work surley its a bad thing ?


Why? Because you aren't getting 100% all the time?

Swiping some of Daniel Pink's thought here on motivation and efficacy of a workplace, but studies have consistently shown that people respond to autonomy over any 'carrot and stick' approach.

You will find people work harder for someone who sets the goal and expects the goal to be made but doesn't get all bent out of shape when somebody is doing something 'off-goal'. It isn't important to have people working on the goal 100% all the time, it is important to make the goal.


As I said if it does not affect work. If some one can talk bollocks without their work being affected fine. But if it starts to be an issue then actions would have to be taken. There is a major issue now with (for example) staff spending time on social networking sites having a detrimental effect on their work, yet they seem to think it’s a right to do this.
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Bryan Cooper
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slatersteven wrote:

As I said if it gets in the way of work.


Just so long as we're clear here.

Work does not equal goal. Plenty of crap gets in the way of work, such as the aforementioned IM debate, that does not get in the way of the goal.
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Boaty McBoatface
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bcooperok wrote:
slatersteven wrote:

As I said if it gets in the way of work.


Just so long as we're clear here.

Work does not equal goal. Plenty of crap gets in the way of work, such as the aforementioned IM debate, that does not get in the way of the goal.


What is the goal if its not doing the job you are paid to do? I assign you a task to be completed by 2 o’clock your goal is to complete it by two o’clock, work is the goal. It may not be your goal, but as I am paying you it’s the one I will fire you for, for not completing.
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But see, you can let the "human capital" debate go by, because there was no debate. I made a joke, and you (yes, YOU) made it about you by declaring that you wouldn't hire me to manage a staff. Well, I've managed more than one staff, and I've indeed had to fire people, but never for anything remotely resembling the meaningless blather that Andrew and his co-workers created.

Of course you have some strong opinions on this issue; even the simplest psych profile that I was able to form of you based on your years of GeekQuestioning demonstrates that you are the least motivated and unhappiest person on the planet. I wish I could feel sorry for you, but there are way too many motivated, cheerful people working for pennies a month making the computer components upon which all these IM debates transpire for me to give you much more than a second or third thought with respect to this "issue."
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slatersteven wrote:


As I said if it does not affect work. If some one can talk bollocks without their work being affected fine. But if it starts to be an issue then actions would have to be taken. There is a major issue now with (for example) staff spending time on social networking sites having a detrimental effect on their work, yet they seem to think it’s a right to do this.


I know! It's frigging amazing. Some of these overly-entitled dipsticks even think it's okay to frequent BGG during the work day!!! These bastards have done more to ruin Western Civilization than any other force, including ancient Roman sexual depravity!!
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slatersteven wrote:
What is the goal if its not doing the job you are paid to do?


This is the heart of this debate.

The GOAL is to deliver a stunning web-page that draws traffic to our site thus increasing revenue.

The WORK is to bang your head against Visual Studio getting BizTalk messages to flow from the WebServer to the AppServer.

I can achieve the goal without doing the work 100% of the time; if I am refreshed by a 20 minute debate on the merits of Superman v Batman, and tackle the stupid non-specific failure message I am getting from BizTalk for another hour with a different perspective then the goal is more likely to be achieved.
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Boaty McBoatface
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MisterCranky wrote:
slatersteven wrote:


As I said if it does not affect work. If some one can talk bollocks without their work being affected fine. But if it starts to be an issue then actions would have to be taken. There is a major issue now with (for example) staff spending time on social networking sites having a detrimental effect on their work, yet they seem to think it’s a right to do this.


I know! It's frigging amazing. Some of these overly-entitled dipsticks even think it's okay to frequent BGG during the work day!!! These bastards have done more to ruin Western Civilization than any other force, including ancient Roman sexual depravity!!


I wonder what people did at work before the internet?
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bcooperok wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
What is the goal if its not doing the job you are paid to do?


This is the heart of this debate.

The GOAL is to deliver a stunning web-page that draws traffic to our site thus increasing revenue.

The WORK is to bang your head against Visual Studio getting BizTalk messages to flow from the WebServer to the AppServer.

I can achieve the goal without doing the work 100% of the time; if I am refreshed by a 20 minute debate on the merits of Superman v Batman, and tackle the stupid non-specific failure message I am getting from BizTalk for another hour with a different perspective then the goal is more likely to be achieved.


That is what scheduled breaks are for. If you take 20 minutes off each hour to ‘relax’ then your 8 hour day becomes a 6 hour day (and you would of course still expect break I suppose?). Would you be happier being paid for the hours you actualy work?
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bcooperok wrote:

I can achieve the goal without doing the work 100% of the time; if I am refreshed by a 20 minute debate on the merits of Superman v Batman, and tackle the stupid non-specific failure message I am getting from BizTalk for another hour with a different perspective then the goal is more likely to be achieved.


Okay, since you apparently want to have an actual, serious discussion of these issues, then I'll man up and help you out for a change. You have oversimplified and generalized with your specific example. You know who I don't want sitting around, IMing with all the other people in his department and impinging on their potential productivity? Pretty much anybody. If you want to get away from banging your head on some tech drivel such as that which you mentioned, then nobody is going to blame you--there's only so much thinking anybody is capable of devoting to a certain topic, and though everybody's personal limits may vary, the ability to walk away from something and come back refreshed is pretty universal, up until that time when you are performing some critical task like open heart surgery, deep sea rescue, calibration of nuclear detonators, etc., etc.

Every employer has the right to expect that those employees who are being paid a premium for their firm-specific or industry-specific skills will provide a premium in productivity. If I go to the corner of Sepulveda and Sawtelle and grab a bracero to come help me install a walk-in bathtub, I'm not going to quibble if he gets on his iPhone during the drive to Costa Mesa (this is a pretty detailed imaginary example, for a guy that lives in Pennsylvania and South Carolina and has no experience whatsoever with either braceros or walk-in bathtubs in the Los Angeles area) and discusses the price of onions in Juarez with his compadres. When our truck arrives in Costa Mesa, however, I will expect him to display superhuman endurance by putting his phone in his pocket and helping me lift the frigging box containing the tub.

I hope that has cleared up this entire debate forever.
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MisterCranky wrote:
slatersteven wrote:


As I said if it does not affect work. If some one can talk bollocks without their work being affected fine. But if it starts to be an issue then actions would have to be taken. There is a major issue now with (for example) staff spending time on social networking sites having a detrimental effect on their work, yet they seem to think it’s a right to do this.


I know! It's frigging amazing. Some of these overly-entitled dipsticks even think it's okay to frequent BGG during the work day!!! These bastards have done more to ruin Western Civilization than any other force, including ancient Roman sexual depravity!!



Me is not overly-entitle dipstick.. just entitled kiss But now that I know what effect it is doing to Western civilization I will STOP. cry and not try to reach my goal of getting my 5th level badge and save it for evenings and weekends.
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oscal wrote:

Me is not overly-entitle dipstick.. just entitled kiss But now that I know what effect it is doing to Western civilization I will STOP. cry and not try to reach my goal of getting my 5th level badge and save it for evenings and weekends.


This thread is a great place for you to reach your 5th level goal. If you do it quickly, there's a bonus in it for you...
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slatersteven wrote:
bcooperok wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
What is the goal if its not doing the job you are paid to do?


This is the heart of this debate.

The GOAL is to deliver a stunning web-page that draws traffic to our site thus increasing revenue.

The WORK is to bang your head against Visual Studio getting BizTalk messages to flow from the WebServer to the AppServer.

I can achieve the goal without doing the work 100% of the time; if I am refreshed by a 20 minute debate on the merits of Superman v Batman, and tackle the stupid non-specific failure message I am getting from BizTalk for another hour with a different perspective then the goal is more likely to be achieved.


That is what scheduled breaks are for. If you take 20 minutes off each hour to ‘relax’ then your 8 hour day becomes a 6 hour day (and you would of course still expect break I suppose?). Would you be happier being paid for the hours you actualy work?


I want to be paid for just showing up! ninja and earn raises I am entitled to! whistle Seriously I do get a little guilt when my work loaded for that day is very little and I need to find other side projects to look busy.
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MisterCranky wrote:
oscal wrote:

Me is not overly-entitle dipstick.. just entitled kiss But now that I know what effect it is doing to Western civilization I will STOP. cry and not try to reach my goal of getting my 5th level badge and save it for evenings and weekends.


This thread is a great place for you to reach your 5th level goal. If you do it quickly, there's a bonus in it for you...



bag and a
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White collar screwing around at work: GOOD CLEAN FUN

Blue collar screwing around at work: MISSING LIMBS
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slatersteven wrote:


That is what scheduled breaks are for. If you take 20 minutes off each hour to ‘relax’ then your 8 hour day becomes a 6 hour day (and you would of course still expect break I suppose?). Would you be happier being paid for the hours you actualy work?


That's all well and good if you're an hourly wage-slave doing some simple job which could easily be handled by a surly macaque, but when you get to the rarified technical stratum where Bryan dwells, you're paid just to apply your knowledge and experience to nebulous "goals." Goals such as, "make a profit for us," "just be adults," and "try not to urinate in the coffee maker after you wake up drunk at your desk."
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oscal wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
bcooperok wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
What is the goal if its not doing the job you are paid to do?


This is the heart of this debate.

The GOAL is to deliver a stunning web-page that draws traffic to our site thus increasing revenue.

The WORK is to bang your head against Visual Studio getting BizTalk messages to flow from the WebServer to the AppServer.

I can achieve the goal without doing the work 100% of the time; if I am refreshed by a 20 minute debate on the merits of Superman v Batman, and tackle the stupid non-specific failure message I am getting from BizTalk for another hour with a different perspective then the goal is more likely to be achieved.


That is what scheduled breaks are for. If you take 20 minutes off each hour to ‘relax’ then your 8 hour day becomes a 6 hour day (and you would of course still expect break I suppose?). Would you be happier being paid for the hours you actualy work?


I want to be paid for just showing up! :ninja: and earn raises I am entitled to! :whistle: Seriously I do get a little guilt when my work loaded for that day is very little and I need to find other side projects to look busy.


If you have no work to do then thats up to your boss to find you work. If you have no work then not doing it does not cost the boss anything.
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slatersteven wrote:
oscal wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
bcooperok wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
What is the goal if its not doing the job you are paid to do?


This is the heart of this debate.

The GOAL is to deliver a stunning web-page that draws traffic to our site thus increasing revenue.

The WORK is to bang your head against Visual Studio getting BizTalk messages to flow from the WebServer to the AppServer.

I can achieve the goal without doing the work 100% of the time; if I am refreshed by a 20 minute debate on the merits of Superman v Batman, and tackle the stupid non-specific failure message I am getting from BizTalk for another hour with a different perspective then the goal is more likely to be achieved.


That is what scheduled breaks are for. If you take 20 minutes off each hour to ‘relax’ then your 8 hour day becomes a 6 hour day (and you would of course still expect break I suppose?). Would you be happier being paid for the hours you actualy work?


I want to be paid for just showing up! ninja and earn raises I am entitled to! whistle Seriously I do get a little guilt when my work loaded for that day is very little and I need to find other side projects to look busy.


If you have no work to do then thats up to your boss to find you work. If you have no work then not doing it does not cost the boss anything.



Did you miss where I said I find side projects? Look busy actually is also doing the project. I don't go to the boss for more work cause being a legal assistant to 4 judges mean their work load fluctuates and I am able to control my day's work.
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HiveGod wrote:
White collar screwing around at work: GOOD CLEAN FUN

Blue collar screwing around at work: MISSING LIMBS


White collar screwing around at work: A RIGHT TO IMPROVE EFFICIENCY

Blue colour screwing around at work: WORK-SHY LAYABOUT

I wonder how many people would be happy paying the plumbers to stand around for 20 minutes discussing football?
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