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Subject: Boardgames in Blighty Reviews Earth Reborn from Z-Man Games rss

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Tom DeFrank
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John McKendrick
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A nice honest review with which I disagree in almost it's entirety .....

I'm not going to go through it point by point except to say - I bought the original Space Hulk ..... WAAAAY back and it had very little in the way of background at that time. I think it Extremely unfair to expect a new game to have such a rich (and frankly far too comical for me) background as Warhammer 40K

-John

And they're not zombies (despite the description) they are reanimated beings! More frankenstein than gothiczombie
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William Gaskill
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This Review really sums up my impression of ER,it seemed like
something I would be interested in but the more I looked into it
the less appealing it became.

OD
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Chris Bailey
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If you're looking for a family friendly minis boardgame that you can play quickly, look into Dust Tactics. In addition to being able to play it 10 to 20 minutes after you open the box with its quick start rules, the minis are AMAZING.
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John McKendrick
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ER is EASILY the best squad sized tactical game on the market.

This is from someone who loves Claustrophobia, Tannhauser and AT-43. If it weren't for the graphics not being to my taste and the figures being unpainted it would easily score not 11 out of 10 but ... ach you get the message.

Space Hulk was fun for the first few missions (I had the original and all expansions) until after many hours.... being the Genestealers both sucked and blowed entire universesrobot

These are my opinions .... that's all

-John
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J B
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I didn't think Earth Reborn was pitched at families but more towards serious gamers who like an immersive and involved experience. While the review may be honest, it's not really relevant as it is done on the basis a family will play it, when in reality it's appeal will be more focused.
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Mark Rivera
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Believe me, I wasn't happy saying what I did as I had high hopes. I would say ER is more simulation, less game. In my experience, the more a simulation, the more work, the less playable, but funnily enough, it can be the most satisfying if you are up for it.

Would love to give Dust Tactics a try!
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Was George Orwell an Optimist?
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mrivera wrote:
note – thanks to Boardgameclub for providing a copy of this game for review

There are a number of previous reviews for Earth Reborn available here, and several of them are better written, with far more depth, and obviously had more effort put into them. This cursory effort doesn't compare well with what has been done by people who paid good money for the game.

I'm sure some will criticize my remarks as unkind, but when you say you received a copy for review, I think you obligate yourself to provide value in return. If you hope to continue receiving review copies in future, I think you need to take a more professional approach.
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Sphere wrote:
mrivera wrote:
note – thanks to Boardgameclub for providing a copy of this game for review

There are a number of previous reviews for Earth Reborn available here, and several of them are better written, with far more depth, and obviously had more effort put into them. This cursory effort doesn't compare well with what has been done by people who paid good money for the game.

I'm sure some will criticize my remarks as unkind, but when you say you received a copy for review, I think you obligate yourself to provide value in return. If you hope to continue receiving review copies in future, I think you need to take a more professional approach.


I couldn't agree more. The reviewer should have done some research (which was readily available) to realise this was not a light touch quick family game. He may have then realised his flippant review was inappropriate in the first place. Really this is an injustice to the game and anyone reading this review. If I could thumbs down it I would.
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J B
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ixnay66 wrote:
If you're looking for a family friendly minis boardgame that you can play quickly, look into Dust Tactics. In addition to being able to play it 10 to 20 minutes after you open the box with its quick start rules, the minis are AMAZING.


While I like DT very much, it's a totally different gaming experience and not in the same category as ER in my opinion. Sometimes you want a quick thrash and sometimes you want something with a bit more depth and detail. Earth Reborn provides that deeper game detail and requires a lot more thought process & time. You are also right when you say the DT minis are amazing, especially the Walkers.
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Ian McCarthy
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I thought this review was fine. Not sure what you mean by your comment, Sphere. It doesn't really matter to us that he got a copy for review. Why should we care whether he writes another epic review?

And I'm tired of all these positive reviews that almost look like promotional spots coming from the other reviewers on this site who get free copies of games.

I actually agree with the complaint that the game lacks accessibility, which I think was the gist of the review. I love the game, but, yeah, it's a game that demands a high degree of involvement from the owner and players. If you don't think the basic mechanics are all that great, then you're not likely to be impressed by the amount of time it takes just to set up the game, learn the rules and play.

Also, I agree that Space Hulk is more accessible, although it's OOP again. And, except in special cases, I would always recommend Claustrophobia before Earth Reborn. Earth Reborn is a game that you graduate into only after you've discovered that you're a huge fan of tactical miniatures board games.
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Mark Rivera
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Chimaera wrote:
Sphere wrote:
mrivera wrote:
note – thanks to Boardgameclub for providing a copy of this game for review

There are a number of previous reviews for Earth Reborn available here, and several of them are better written, with far more depth, and obviously had more effort put into them. This cursory effort doesn't compare well with what has been done by people who paid good money for the game.

I'm sure some will criticize my remarks as unkind, but when you say you received a copy for review, I think you obligate yourself to provide value in return. If you hope to continue receiving review copies in future, I think you need to take a more professional approach.


I couldn't agree more. The reviewer should have done some research (which was readily available) to realise this was not a light touch quick family game. He may have then realised his flippant review was inappropriate in the first place. Really this is an injustice to the game and anyone reading this review. If I could thumbs down it I would.


The only flippancy here is in the arrogance of your comments. Who says how long or in depth a review has to be? You? Hardly. Are you the judge of what is or isn't a professional approach? You? Again hardly. Sniping and down right rudeness just because someone doesn't agree with your view of a game is typical of what sometimes sadly happens on BGG to its detriment.

I NEVER said ER was meant to be a family game. Read the review properly. FYI, I comment about whether a game is family friendly on every game I review so those who are looking for such will know at a glance.

I have a view and can review as I see fit. You are certainly entitled to do the same. FYI, I did read up on it. I just don't think it works for me and I don't need a lot of verbiage to say so. I always appreciate the work that goes into a game design and I write what I think is appropriate for me to write. If you want to write a review, you can do it your way.

If ER works for you, go for it. No problem whatsoever. That's what's great about our hobby. But sadly, the disrespect as you've shown only diminishes yourselves.

We can always agree to disagree, but respectfully.
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mrivera wrote:
Chimaera wrote:
Sphere wrote:
mrivera wrote:
note – thanks to Boardgameclub for providing a copy of this game for review

There are a number of previous reviews for Earth Reborn available here, and several of them are better written, with far more depth, and obviously had more effort put into them. This cursory effort doesn't compare well with what has been done by people who paid good money for the game.

I'm sure some will criticize my remarks as unkind, but when you say you received a copy for review, I think you obligate yourself to provide value in return. If you hope to continue receiving review copies in future, I think you need to take a more professional approach.


I couldn't agree more. The reviewer should have done some research (which was readily available) to realise this was not a light touch quick family game. He may have then realised his flippant review was inappropriate in the first place. Really this is an injustice to the game and anyone reading this review. If I could thumbs down it I would.


The only flippancy here is in the arrogance of your comments. Who says how long or in depth a review has to be? You? Hardly. Are you the judge of what is or isn't a professional approach? You? Again hardly. Sniping and down right rudeness just because someone doesn't agree with your view of a game is typical of what sometimes sadly happens on BGG to its detriment.

I NEVER said ER was meant to be a family game. Read the review properly. FYI, I comment about whether a game is family friendly on every game I review so those who are looking for such will know at a glance.

I have a view and can review as I see fit. You are certainly entitled to do the same. FYI, I did read up on it. I just don't think it works for me and I don't need a lot of verbiage to say so. I always appreciate the work that goes into a game design and I write what I think is appropriate for me to write. If you want to write a review, you can do it your way.

If ER works for you, go for it. No problem whatsoever. That's what's great about our hobby. But sadly, the disrespect as you've shown only diminishes yourselves.

We can always agree to disagree, but respectfully.


You can review the game how you see fit and others can review your review how they see fit. If you don't like criticism. Don't post your opinions on a public forum.
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Ian McCarthy
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Huh, the reviewer is responding and in a more detailed and explicit way than you.

C'mon, don't be one of those bad fans. It's not worth it and it makes people who love this game look bad.
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Mark Rivera
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Don't mind constructive and mature criticism at all. Try it.
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John McKendrick
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Guys this is getting personal ... careful

Mark .... your review does look cursory, you even admit yourself that there is too much depth in ER .... I found it hard to take the review seriously at that point

Sorry but that's the way it comes across

-John

ps ... and yes I am a fan ... as I am of other 'marmite' games like 'Android' and 'Tannhauser'
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Mark Rivera
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I can see your point John. The points I was trying to make are there in my opinion though. In this case I felt I didn't see a need nitpick as the general sense of the game for me was that it is over-cooked with too many ingredients. Again for me. There are plenty of others who disagree and that's fine.

I don't hate the game mind you, and I can see why others would like it as they like that level of detail. That's awesome I say. But I was simply disappointed and felt it was too much trouble.
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Dennis Gadgaard
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I will agree with a few of the reviewers points; The background is nowhere as rich as for the popular space corridor game, but that background has been worked on and added to by lots of people over at least 20 years, so it's only to be expected.
On the other hand, if you were to pick up the space corridor game with no prior knowledge of the background, I doubt it will seem as rich as that.
There is a steep learning curve, and without the 9 scenarios slowly introducing layers of rules, it would be a tough game to learn, though in no way tougher than your average war-game. Expect to play a good number of games before knowing fully how to play.
Setup may seem laborious on the first try, but after a very few of the good number of games required to learn the rules you get the hang of it. I timed my setup times for the first 4 scenarios, which were:
Scenario 1 - 6:20
Scenario 2 - 5:00
Scenario 3 - 4:02
Scenario 4 - 6:25
Compared to a lot of other games, I don't find this intimidating at all, but opinions vary.
Oh yes, even though they are called zombies, they are not your standard fare of pulp zombies, but rather reinmated corpses as previously mentioned. Thinking individuals that may even use fireams, if they can carry them.

There IS a lot too it; after 14 plays, I've only reached as far as scenario 5 and for me it just gets better and better. But for sure if I would play Claustrophobia for a game that sets up quicker, plays quicker and has a less steep learning curve - it's a terrific game too
I have seized and desisted from playing the space corridor game though, since it's obvious to me that the holder of the intellectual property does not want me to even mention it. Shame though, I really enjoyed it back in the mid 90s.
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Mark Rivera
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Reviews come in all shapes and sizes and that's how it should be. What is superficial for some is just right for others and vice versa.

Point taken about the zombies btw.
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Tim McCormley
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mrivera wrote:
Reviews come in all shapes and sizes and that's how it should be. What is superficial for some is just right for others and vice versa.

Yep. Actually, I think this is a perfectly acceptable (and on target) review. He finds the game overly ambitious resulting in too much complexity for his enjoyment.

Not that it's been a flop or anything, but I've often wondered why this game hasn't been a HUGE hit. I think part of it might be due to the learning curve, as the reviewer rightly pointed out.

For my money, this game blows away all comers, but I'm the kind of gamer that is willing to invest some time to learn the details. For others, it can be daunting and a real obstacle to their overall enjoyment. And there ARE a lot of rules. And it takes a while to set up.

Now, if the reviewer missed anything, I would say it is this: although the game (obviously) has a lot of shooting going on, this is not a straight forward shoot em up dungeon crawler (unlike Space Hulk.) There are a wide variety of tactics that must be employed to be successful. Sometimes you don't even *want* to go toe-to-toe with the enemy. Interacting with the board elements, running to escape when you have to, searching for secrets, etc, are all just as important as running a buzz saw through Nick Bolter's torso. But you don't see that unless you work your way through a fair amount of scenarios and take advantage of all the tools the game provides. (And don't even get me started on the brilliant notion of having potential traitors on the side of the Salemites.) But hell, I've played at least 20 times, and I still haven't learned to use a combined move on a regular basis!

It's just unfortunate that a rich gaming experience carries with it a fair amount of complexity. Then again, I'm a total nutcase about these kinds of things, and I'm willing to bear the pain, so to speak, because I think the payback is off the scale in terms of enjoyment. The average gamer just may not see the ROI (Return on Investment) the way I do and would rather fire up the 3rd version (in a series of 8.376 x 10E+23 versions) of Castle Ravenloft instead. I get it.

Anyhow, I'm just glad I have this game in my collection, and I sure hope we see expansions of some kind.

Hey Z-Man. If you're listening, how about a p-500 or kickstarter campaign for the next expansion of ER?

Tim
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Mark Rivera
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Back in the day I loved this level of complexity. Price of age I guess
 
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John McKendrick
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mrivera wrote:
Back in the day I loved this level of complexity. Price of age I guess


I gotta be older than you (53)

for me ASL holds no fear and I've played several hundred hours of it ninja

-John
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Sphere wrote:
mrivera wrote:
note – thanks to Boardgameclub for providing a copy of this game for review

There are a number of previous reviews for Earth Reborn available here, and several of them are better written, with far more depth, and obviously had more effort put into them. This cursory effort doesn't compare well with what has been done by people who paid good money for the game.

I'm sure some will criticize my remarks as unkind, but when you say you received a copy for review, I think you obligate yourself to provide value in return. If you hope to continue receiving review copies in future, I think you need to take a more professional approach.


With Sphere on this one. I always enjoy good reviews, but the summary review for this is very generic. I would have liked to hear more about which scenarios you played,and how the interaction went.

Agricola, Did it work for me?

I have to say that although I think that Agricola is fun at the fairly basic level, I am otherwise disappointed. It looks good and the meeples are awesome but There is far too much to take in even with programmed instruction to take you through a learning curve. The theme is good if not terribly original, as farming stuff including a couple of the obligatory farm workers has been done relatively to death. Its a very ambitious game and perhaps too much of a good thing. The set up is difficult and too time consuming. The background, although interesting is nowhere as rich as the history of the colonization of earth. The mechanics are very bitty and when compared to the streamlined playability of the likes of Puerto Rico there is just no comparison. Yes, there are more free form options here but for me, its all too much. This one is only for the very dedicated who will stick with it.
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armor_11 wrote:
mrivera wrote:
Reviews come in all shapes and sizes and that's how it should be. What is superficial for some is just right for others and vice versa.

Yep. Actually, I think this is a perfectly acceptable (and on target) review. He finds the game overly ambitious resulting in too much complexity for his enjoyment.

Not that it's been a flop or anything, but I've often wondered why this game hasn't been a HUGE hit. I think part of it might be due to the learning curve, as the reviewer rightly pointed out.

For my money, this game blows away all comers, but I'm the kind of gamer that is willing to invest some time to learn the details. For others, it can be daunting and a real obstacle to their overall enjoyment. And there ARE a lot of rules. And it takes a while to set up.

Now, if the reviewer missed anything, I would say it is this: although the game (obviously) has a lot of shooting going on, this is not a straight forward shoot em up dungeon crawler (unlike Space Hulk.) There are a wide variety of tactics that must be employed to be successful. Sometimes you don't even *want* to go toe-to-toe with the enemy. Interacting with the board elements, running to escape when you have to, searching for secrets, etc, are all just as important as running a buzz saw through Nick Bolter's torso. But you don't see that unless you work your way through a fair amount of scenarios and take advantage of all the tools the game provides. (And don't even get me started on the brilliant notion of having potential traitors on the side of the Salemites.) But hell, I've played at least 20 times, and I still haven't learned to use a combined move on a regular basis!

It's just unfortunate that a rich gaming experience carries with it a fair amount of complexity. Then again, I'm a total nutcase about these kinds of things, and I'm willing to bear the pain, so to speak, because I think the payback is off the scale in terms of enjoyment. The average gamer just may not see the ROI (Return on Investment) the way I do and would rather fire up the 3rd version (in a series of 8.376 x 10E+23 versions) of Castle Ravenloft instead. I get it.

Anyhow, I'm just glad I have this game in my collection, and I sure hope we see expansions of some kind.

Hey Z-Man. If you're listening, how about a p-500 or kickstarter campaign for the next expansion of ER?

Tim


Well stated Tim...

I personally feel that Earth Reborn blows away Space Hulk, Dust Tactics and Claustraphobia due to the extra complexity. I could see how many would look at the box/contents, scratch their head and say 'next'.

Blighty - Some constructive feedback - For future reviews I'd recommend putting the amount of plays you had before writing the review and some personal experiences while playing the game. Write about your experience about your first scenario. I enjoy seeing a negative review every now and then, but put a personal touch in it.
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Simon Webster
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I liked the review. Thanks for doing it.

I think I'm in the same boat as the OP.
I used to love fiddly, complex and long games from FFG et al.

I traded ER away (for Agricola actually). The game took a horrendous amount of time to set up. Horrendous. 45 minutes sometimes. Including teardown time and that's as much time spent on setup/teardown as actual gameplay.

Plus I felt the game didn't really come to life until the SAGS stage, but the difficulty in teaching a player all the rules to that point was immense.

I thought it was great game actually, based on gameplay alone. Extremely ambitious and to be applauded in that regard. But the 2 issues mentioned above just kept it glued to the shelf and made me wish I had plumped for Claustrophobia instead..
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