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Subject: Advice Wanted: Pacific or Europe? rss

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Mark J.
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I am looking for some advice from those that have played as to which one to try for a game night. I own both games so that is not the issue, I just don't get many opportunities to play these days and have not played either one yet.

Please keep in mind the following considerations and criteria in making your recommendation. An explanation of why you recommend one over the other is appreciated.

Considerations:

-We will have 3 players, maybe 4

-There is a difference in skill levels, 1 player is top notch, the other 2 are smart but still learning. The potential 4th player is top notch as well.

-Available time is 4-5 hours maximum

-This is a one time shot, we rarely get together to play.

-No one has played the 1940 editions before.

-No clear cut preference between land and naval combat in the group.

-We will be using the out of the box rules, unless I hear a loud chorus of recommendations against this--I'm not crazy about house rules.

Based on that, would you recommend we try Europe 1940, Pacific 1940 or Global 1940?
 
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Jeff Fricke
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With only 3 or 4 people I probably wouldn't go with global. I really only like global with max players.
I'd probably go with Europe simply because it contains a good bit of all the action. Really if you're playing PTO, the major powers are just Japan and the US. The other players don't have near as much going on.

It's still hard to judge though because both theaters play differently and are good for their own reasons. I'd just lean more towards Europe. Especially if I've got new people to the series playing as they can relate to the European theater a lot better than PTO.
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Jan Tuijp
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Listerlives wrote:
Really if you're playing PTO, the major powers are just Japan and the US. The other players don't have near as much going on.


There's a solution to that. I've played Pacific five or six times (Alpha 2+) and ofcourse Japan and the US get the lion's share of the action, but when the US does its job, UK and ANZAC are not without challenge.

Thing to remember is you shouldn't play Pacific with more than three people (IMHO, that is). Last time we played, we assigned Japan to player one, the US to player two and the rest (UK, ANZAC and China) to player three. That way everyone keeps busy. Just make sure player three is experienced and remind inexperienced players to their NO's every turn.

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Jan Ozimek
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TTM07 wrote:
-We will have 3 players, maybe 4

I don't think the Pacific game is suited for more than 3 players. The Europe game can hold four players but I would prefer to go with no more than three.

TTM07 wrote:
-There is a difference in skill levels, 1 player is top notch, the other 2 are smart but still learning. The potential 4th player is top notch as well.

In the Pacific there are more oppotunities for sucker punches as fleets are very mobile and extremely expensive. Thus an oversigt can cost a player the game if their navy is caught off guard.

In the Europe game the Axis need to be efficient or they will be overwhelmed by the US economy. That makes them suitable for a seasoned player, while the Allies are more foregiving.

TTM07 wrote:
-No one has played the 1940 editions before.

Naval and air bases are probably the most significant changes from previous editions. Especially in the Pacific they play a huge role in strategic and tactical moves. That makes the Pacific slightly less accessible than the Europe game.

TTM07 wrote:
-We will be using the out of the box rules, unless I hear a loud chorus of recommendations against this--I'm not crazy about house rules.

You should certainly check out the rules revision called Alpha+X. The laterst and third iteration (Alpha+3) has just been released. I wouldn't call them house rules as the designer himself is running the project. You can find these rules here:
http://harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=6149...

Edit: Just to perfectly clear: I recommend the Europe game. whistle
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John M
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ozimek wrote:
TTM07 wrote:
-We will have 3 players, maybe 4


You should certainly check out the rules revision called Alpha+X. The laterst and third iteration (Alpha+3) has just been released. I wouldn't call them house rules as the designer himself is running the project. You can find these rules here:
http://harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=6149...

Edit: Just to perfectly clear: I recommend the Europe game. whistle


Hehe... Alpha+X, that cracked me up. Well, they are still kinda house rules Ozimek... because it doesn't look like anyone has edited it, there is no official book that you can buy (so we have reams of printouts at this point with no rulebook-ish formatting, very shoddy), and there's liable to be many more changes... hmm - sounds like house rules to me. Honestly, I hope that its ironed out someday and an official book is made available... but this should have been done in the first place when you think about it.

Actually TTM07, my suggestion would be neither Pacific, Europe or Global, but the Anniversary edition if its available to you. If not, perhaps settle on Revised (but then you're playing without all the later bells and whistles). But at the end of the day... Anniversary is the one that is balanced OOB for the most part (played with no National Objectives or tech. - but even with these it isn't terribly unbalanced imho, though tech always has a way of swinging things drastically).
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Jan Ozimek
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Viracocha wrote:
Hehe... Alpha+X, that cracked me up. Well, they are still kinda house rules Ozimek... because it doesn't look like anyone has edited it, there is no official book that you can buy (so we have reams of printouts at this point with no rulebook-ish formatting, very shoddy), and there's liable to be many more changes... hmm - sounds like house rules to me. Honestly, I hope that its ironed out someday and an official book is made available... but this should have been done in the first place when you think about it.

If you measure house-rule-ness on the glossyness of the paper they are printed on, then yes

The Alpha project IS the foundation of the official rules when they are finished, so you might as well get used to the changes. The changes in Alpha will be reflected in the future official and printed rules (assuming another printrun) and their current form is certainly much closer to what most people will be playing anyway.

Also Alpha is certainly more balanced than OOB rules. After a few plays, I'm sure you will find that OOB is basically unplayable due to imbalances (especially Pacific). You might as well save yourself that pain, and go directly to Alpha+3.

I think we can all agree that this work should have been completed before the game was released.
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John M
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ozimek wrote:

If you measure house-rule-ness on the glossyness of the paper they are printed on, then yes

The Alpha project IS the foundation of the official rules when they are finished, so you might as well get used to the changes. The changes in Alpha will be reflected in the future official and printed rules (assuming another printrun) and their current form is certainly much closer to what most people will be playing anyway.

Also Alpha is certainly more balanced than OOB rules. After a few plays, I'm sure you will find that OOB is basically unplayable due to imbalances (especially Pacific). You might as well save yourself that pain, and go directly to Alpha+3.

I think we can all agree that this work should have been completed before the game was released.


No... I measure 'house-rule-ness' or better yet, 'official rules' by the playability/balance of them - and format does matter since such information should be already edited and easily gleaned when needed... as rulebooks (ideally) are. I don't care if its on glossy paper or not, but there SHOULD be another printing. We gave up on the OOB rules quite awhile ago and have tried the Alphas, and will try the latest. Yeah... I might as well 'get used to' these rules as being official... did I ever say otherwise? Nope.

And yes, we can obviously all agree that this work - etc. etc.
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Jan Ozimek
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Viracocha wrote:
ozimek wrote:

If you measure house-rule-ness on the glossyness of the paper they are printed on, then yes

The Alpha project IS the foundation of the official rules when they are finished, so you might as well get used to the changes. The changes in Alpha will be reflected in the future official and printed rules (assuming another printrun) and their current form is certainly much closer to what most people will be playing anyway.

Also Alpha is certainly more balanced than OOB rules. After a few plays, I'm sure you will find that OOB is basically unplayable due to imbalances (especially Pacific). You might as well save yourself that pain, and go directly to Alpha+3.

I think we can all agree that this work should have been completed before the game was released.


No... I measure house-rule-ness or better yet, 'official rules' by the playability/balance of them - and format does matter since such information should be already edited and easily gleaned when needed... as rulebooks are. I don't care if its on glossy paper or not, but there SHOULD be another printing. We gave up on the OOB rules quite awhile ago and have tried the Alphas, and will try the latest. Yeah... I might as well 'get used to' these rules as being official... did I ever say otherwise? Nope.

And yes, we can obviously all agree that this work - etc. etc.

I may have misunderstood you, but I got the impression that recommended that he didn't use Alpha rules because they were too houseruleish. I totally agree that it is a mess and a pain that makes the game far less accessible. It just happens to be the lesser of two evils, (the other being the broken OOB rules) which is why I recommended it.

Apparently we agree more than I initially thought. Sorry about the confusion.
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John M
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No worries - I perhaps should have been more clear. I think we're on the same exact page. Here's to hoping for a 'healed game' someday.
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