Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
37 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Everything Else » Religion, Sex, and Politics

Subject: African countries: AIDS rates and Christianity - the correlation rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
lotus dweller
Australia
Melbourne
Victoria
flag msg tools
Avatar
From thread http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/694880/then-have-fewer-poor-... here is a new thread for discussing African countries: AIDS rates and Christianity - the correlation and related topics.

A place to start
Emperador Carlos wrote:

... get some facts. For example, Catholic African countries have the lowest AIDS rates.


http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/2007/mar/070306...


Or perhaps
sbszine wrote:

...As for Africa, dunno. It's pretty much screwed.

Some stuff that could be tried:
- Write off debt so that cash crop proceeds don't end up in the 1st world
- Blow up some warlords
- Reserve and rehabilitate land
- Shoot the pope, distribute condoms
3 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew Rowse
New Zealand
Wellington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
That LifeSiteNews site is disgusting. Thinly veiled hate speech and marginalisation of non-Christians. Christ would not approve.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Boaty McBoatface
England
County of Essex
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This does however seem to be true, oddly protestant countires have the highest rate of Aids. but they also tend to presch abstinance. Now the question of course becmes are catholics less likly to catch aids?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew Rowse
New Zealand
Wellington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The statistics in that article should be treated with caution. You cannot compare predominantly West African catholic nations with predominantly South African non-catholic nations and claim that the important factor in the different infection rates is religion. Geography is an extremely relevant factor!

Far more compelling would be data from within nations, comparing infection rates in defferent religious communities, especially the communities that are influenced by catholic rules without actually being catholic themselves.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Donald
United States
New Alexandria
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
slatersteven wrote:
Now the question of course becmes are catholics less likly to catch aids?


Or less likely to report it?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher Dearlove
United Kingdom
Chelmsford
Essex
flag msg tools
SoRCon 11 23-25 Feb 2018 Basildon UK http://www.sorcon.co.uk
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
slatersteven wrote:
This does however seem to be true, oddly protestant countires have the highest rate of Aids. but they also tend to presch abstinance. Now the question of course becmes are catholics less likly to catch aids?


Evidence? The original article claimed this. However it claimed the CIA World Factbook as a source, but when I checked it, to take one example (I stopped at this point, working alphabetically) Botswana had the second highest AIDS level, but had no statistic for the proportion of Catholics, only Christians.

So even before we get to considering whether this claim would mean anything if it were true, it isn't clear that it is true. And basing anything on the original website is of no value, as it is clearly not a neutral source (to put it mildly).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Exceptio probat regulam
msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Worth looking at US policy on international funding for programs designed to help deal with AIDS in Africa.

IIRC, in the recent past, the US blocked any international funding it could unless the preventative part of the programs taught abstinence (note: all programs, including those for mature adults).

Perhaps the real correlation is with countries where the US was able to blackmail the health professionals into teaching abstinence (better than nothing at all).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carlos Cardozo
United States
Merion Station
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Calling the website into question is bunk. It's the first of like a million hits that I just grabbed to prove my point. It's something that's well-documented and I only linked a source so people wouldn't demand I did.

Claiming bias is the defense of the desperate and the anti-intellectual. Face it; The Holy Church prevents AIDS, yor disgusting rubbery "science" (pseudo-science, in fact) does not.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew Rowse
New Zealand
Wellington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
There are a lot of people who are prepared to accept falsehoods as truth and regurgitate them in order to show that they're part of a special team, and Christians are no exception. The number of sources claiming a lack of correlation between anti-contraception programmes and the spread of AIDS is irrelevant. The only thing that's relevant is whether facts are presented that support theses.

The facts presented on that website do not support their theses. The claims are as valid as 'Americans speak English and Indians speak Hindi, and India has more AIDS than America, so speaking English helps to prevent the spread of AIDS'.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Boaty McBoatface
England
County of Essex
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dearlove wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
This does however seem to be true, oddly protestant countires have the highest rate of Aids. but they also tend to presch abstinance. Now the question of course becmes are catholics less likly to catch aids?


Evidence? The original article claimed this. However it claimed the CIA World Factbook as a source, but when I checked it, to take one example (I stopped at this point, working alphabetically) Botswana had the second highest AIDS level, but had no statistic for the proportion of Catholics, only Christians.

So even before we get to considering whether this claim would mean anything if it were true, it isn't clear that it is true. And basing anything on the original website is of no value, as it is clearly not a neutral source (to put it mildly).


This also says it, and seems to be rather less biased http://www.martinrothonline.com/MRCC11.htm This is why I said it seemed to be true, its not the only place saying it. Now lets see some figures disputing it.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Boaty McBoatface
England
County of Essex
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
KAndrw wrote:
There are a lot of people who are prepared to accept falsehoods as truth and regurgitate them in order to show that they're part of a special team, and Christians are no exception. The number of sources claiming a lack of correlation between anti-contraception programmes and the spread of AIDS is irrelevant. The only thing that's relevant is whether facts are presented that support theses.

The facts presented on that website do not support their theses. The claims are as valid as 'Americans speak English and Indians speak Hindi, and India has more AIDS than America, so speaking English helps to prevent the spread of AIDS'.


I agree that they need to demonstrate a correlation. But we also need to see the counter facts that countries that use condoms have less aids (for example),
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Boaty McBoatface
England
County of Essex
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
KAndrw wrote:
There are a lot of people who are prepared to accept falsehoods as truth and regurgitate them in order to show that they're part of a special team, and Christians are no exception. The number of sources claiming a lack of correlation between anti-contraception programmes and the spread of AIDS is irrelevant. The only thing that's relevant is whether facts are presented that support theses.

The facts presented on that website do not support their theses. The claims are as valid as 'Americans speak English and Indians speak Hindi, and India has more AIDS than America, so speaking English helps to prevent the spread of AIDS'.

Adult (15-49), prevalence as a percentage.
United Kingdom 00.20 (non catholic)
Brazil 00.40 (Catholic)
Greece 00.20 (non catholic)
Ireland 00.20 (catholic)
Libya 00.30(non catholic)
Mexico 00.30 (catholic)

I am seeing no pattern of catholic counties having noticeably less aid infections then non-catholic ones. There are regional differences (Europe is lower then Africa or most of Asia). I hate to say this (because of the obvious connotations) but all of the top 38 countries are in either Africa or the Caribbean.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Xander Fulton
United States
Astoria
Oregon
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
gyc365 wrote:
Perhaps the real correlation is with countries where the US was able to blackmail the health professionals into teaching abstinence (better than nothing at all).


Except, as has recently been pointed out - teaching abstinence-only is actually *worse* than teaching nothing at all:

Quote:
In other words, abstinence education programs did nothing favorable – the result was the same as if there were no program being offered at all.


...which doesn't factor in the cost of a program that doesn't actually make a difference. And add that to (from the same article):

Quote:
Therefore, those youngsters who took the virginity pledge were not only just as likely to have intercourse, they ultimately were more likely to take part in sex in an unsafe manner. This has led experts to conclude that the lessons students take from their abstinence-only education programs is a negative and/or faulty view of contraception.


So...in fact...'abstinence only' education appears to be MUCH worse than 'nothing at all'.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Boaty McBoatface
England
County of Essex
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
XanderF wrote:
gyc365 wrote:
Perhaps the real correlation is with countries where the US was able to blackmail the health professionals into teaching abstinence (better than nothing at all).


Except, as has recently been pointed out - teaching abstinence-only is actually *worse* than teaching nothing at all:

Quote:
In other words, abstinence education programs did nothing favorable – the result was the same as if there were no program being offered at all.


...which doesn't factor in the cost of a program that doesn't actually make a difference. And add that to (from the same article):

Quote:
Therefore, those youngsters who took the virginity pledge were not only just as likely to have intercourse, they ultimately were more likely to take part in sex in an unsafe manner. This has led experts to conclude that the lessons students take from their abstinence-only education programs is a negative and/or faulty view of contraception.


So...in fact...'abstinence only' education appears to be MUCH worse than 'nothing at all'.


These figures are about its impact on the USA, as I hoped I had demonstrated, there is a cultural dimension to this.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher Dearlove
United Kingdom
Chelmsford
Essex
flag msg tools
SoRCon 11 23-25 Feb 2018 Basildon UK http://www.sorcon.co.uk
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
slatersteven wrote:
Dearlove wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
This does however seem to be true, oddly protestant countires have the highest rate of Aids. but they also tend to presch abstinance. Now the question of course becmes are catholics less likly to catch aids?


Evidence? The original article claimed this. However it claimed the CIA World Factbook as a source, but when I checked it, to take one example (I stopped at this point, working alphabetically) Botswana had the second highest AIDS level, but had no statistic for the proportion of Catholics, only Christians.

So even before we get to considering whether this claim would mean anything if it were true, it isn't clear that it is true. And basing anything on the original website is of no value, as it is clearly not a neutral source (to put it mildly).


This also says it, and seems to be rather less biased http://www.martinrothonline.com/MRCC11.htm This is why I said it seemed to be true, its not the only place saying it. Now lets see some figures disputing it.


That second site says something quite different. It suggests highly Muslim countries have less AIDS - though you need more than just listing the most Muslim countries, and correlation coefficients, and things like that. And then that's just correlation, not causation and there are other factors (such as geography). But what that site clearly doesn't do is support high Catholic = low AIDS.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Boaty McBoatface
England
County of Essex
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dearlove wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Dearlove wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
This does however seem to be true, oddly protestant countires have the highest rate of Aids. but they also tend to presch abstinance. Now the question of course becmes are catholics less likly to catch aids?


Evidence? The original article claimed this. However it claimed the CIA World Factbook as a source, but when I checked it, to take one example (I stopped at this point, working alphabetically) Botswana had the second highest AIDS level, but had no statistic for the proportion of Catholics, only Christians.

So even before we get to considering whether this claim would mean anything if it were true, it isn't clear that it is true. And basing anything on the original website is of no value, as it is clearly not a neutral source (to put it mildly).


This also says it, and seems to be rather less biased http://www.martinrothonline.com/MRCC11.htm This is why I said it seemed to be true, its not the only place saying it. Now lets see some figures disputing it.


That second site says something quite different. It suggests highly Muslim countries have less AIDS - though you need more than just listing the most Muslim countries, and correlation coefficients, and things like that. And then that's just correlation, not causation and there are other factors (such as geography). But what that site clearly doesn't do is support high Catholic = low AIDS.



"But where the figures get really depressing (for an evangelical Christian) is when you realise that in general the HIV/AIDS rate is highest in those countries where Protestants and other non-Catholic Christians predominate."

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Emperador Carlos wrote:
Claiming bias is the defense of the desperate and the anti-intellectual. Face it; The Holy Church prevents AIDS, yor disgusting rubbery "science" (pseudo-science, in fact) does not.


Ok, now, whose sock puppet is this?
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Captain Nemo
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
slatersteven wrote:
Dearlove wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Dearlove wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
This does however seem to be true, oddly protestant countires have the highest rate of Aids. but they also tend to presch abstinance. Now the question of course becmes are catholics less likly to catch aids?


Evidence? The original article claimed this. However it claimed the CIA World Factbook as a source, but when I checked it, to take one example (I stopped at this point, working alphabetically) Botswana had the second highest AIDS level, but had no statistic for the proportion of Catholics, only Christians.

So even before we get to considering whether this claim would mean anything if it were true, it isn't clear that it is true. And basing anything on the original website is of no value, as it is clearly not a neutral source (to put it mildly).


This also says it, and seems to be rather less biased http://www.martinrothonline.com/MRCC11.htm This is why I said it seemed to be true, its not the only place saying it. Now lets see some figures disputing it.


That second site says something quite different. It suggests highly Muslim countries have less AIDS - though you need more than just listing the most Muslim countries, and correlation coefficients, and things like that. And then that's just correlation, not causation and there are other factors (such as geography). But what that site clearly doesn't do is support high Catholic = low AIDS.



"But where the figures get really depressing (for an evangelical Christian) is when you realise that in general the HIV/AIDS rate is highest in those countries where Protestants and other non-Catholic Christians predominate."



Perhaps but I would strongly advise caution on:
(1) Viability and reliability of data for comparisons as countries and people in them vary in their approach to reporting data
(2) Assuming correlation and causality
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nate Merchant
United States
New York
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
HeinzGuderian wrote:
Emperador Carlos wrote:
Claiming bias is the defense of the desperate and the anti-intellectual. Face it; The Holy Church prevents AIDS, yor disgusting rubbery "science" (pseudo-science, in fact) does not.


Ok, now, whose sock puppet is this?


Yeah, someone sounds quite unhinged. The "Holy" Church prevents AIDS in the same way that Nazi death squads saved lives.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum europae vincendarum
United States
Bama by way of San Diego
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
19 posts to bring out the Nazis. Nowheres near a record, but still impressive. How long before Bush shows up?
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
lotus dweller
Australia
Melbourne
Victoria
flag msg tools
Avatar
Geography didn't significantly effect AIDS when I was at school.


Is it an altitude, climate, vegetation, watershed, rainfall, wind direction or ground water influence that is now seen as having the effect?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
lotus dweller
Australia
Melbourne
Victoria
flag msg tools
Avatar
bobby_5150 wrote:
19 posts to bring out the Nazis. Nowheres near a record, but still impressive. How long before Bush shows up?
We've already had US policy on all foreign AIDS programs needing to have a "abstinence" component. This I believe was initiated by TBCA.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dane Peacock
United States
Stansbury Park
Utah
flag msg tools
badge
That tickles
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Natus wrote:
HeinzGuderian wrote:
Emperador Carlos wrote:
Claiming bias is the defense of the desperate and the anti-intellectual. Face it; The Holy Church prevents AIDS, yor disgusting rubbery "science" (pseudo-science, in fact) does not.


Ok, now, whose sock puppet is this?


Yeah, someone sounds quite unhinged. The "Holy" Church prevents AIDS in the same way that Nazi death squads saved lives.


I don't know, saying that the holy church causes aids is at least as unhinged as saying that the holy church prevents aids.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
lotus dweller
Australia
Melbourne
Victoria
flag msg tools
Avatar
Notice the title of this thread peoples.

AFRICA - you want to show us that religion has no correlation with the incidence of AIDS in Africa then go ahead. Attempting to generalise to AFRICA from the situation in the USA or Europe is going to look very silly (this is a good thing however)* unless you can show why its a valid generalisation.

*The sillier you look the smarter the rest of us feel. Your stupidity could boost someone's self esteem!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Exceptio probat regulam
msg tools
mbmbmbmb
@XanderF

The programs in Africa are aimed at all sexually mature adults, not exclusively at young adults. Also AIDS-related programs have different issues to address (for example denial of AIDS as an STD, complete refusal to discuss STDs at all, etc).

I don't think these should be closely compared with naive "abstinence-only" programs for young adults in the US.

And FWIW I mainly wrote that earlier post to highlight the fact that there are many lunatic groups involved in education about STDs. The OP linked to a site supporting the the Catholic Church - by no means the only religious organization with unrealistic attitudes about sex and STD education. But even the US Government contributes.

Certainly the post linked in the OP is, statistically speaking, complete nonsense, since it is just trying to defend one small actor in a multi-actor context.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.