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Subject: Shrink Ray rss

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Casey Nguyen
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Question, if you have a shrink ray counter on you (roll 1 less die) and you are in Tokyo, since you cannot heal with hearts there you cannot use them to remove the shrink ray counters either, right? You'd have to yield and step out of Tokyo

I have a feeling this is correct but just want to make sure.
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David Vanden Heuvel
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we've always played it that you can roll a heart and remove the shrink ray counter, you just can't heal while in Tokyo.
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Yiorgos Golfinopoulos
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You can't use heart results to heal yourself while in Tokyo. You can use them for any other reason.
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nikolaos Kamoudis
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You cant use your hearts to heal in tokyo but you can use them to remove counters.The rules says that you cannot heal using hearts in tokyo not you cant use the heart result for any other reason.
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Jonathon Rose
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What happens if you get hit with enough attacks to completely reduce the number of dice you roll to zero? Game over for your monster, basically?
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Josh Malbon
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tetrisphreak wrote:
What happens if you get hit with enough attacks to completely reduce the number of dice you roll to zero? Game over for your monster, basically?


Sounds like it. Unless you have energy to purchase that card that gives you bonus dice.

I wonder if shrink ray would effect the green bonus dice. Hmmm?
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Casey Nguyen
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Boofus wrote:
You can't use heart results to heal yourself while in Tokyo. You can use them for any other reason.

gotcha, thanks for the clarification, everyone. love this game, btw
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Kurt
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tetrisphreak wrote:
What happens if you get hit with enough attacks to completely reduce the number of dice you roll to zero? Game over for your monster, basically?

I imagine that's the case, too.

Fortunately, you'd have to let someone with a shrink ray hit you 6 separate turns (or 3 if there's a mimic card in play) without spending any healing points to remove the counters. Either that's some seriously bad luck or monumental hubris while pushing your luck!
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Brian M
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Quote:
You can't use heart results to heal yourself while in Tokyo. You can use them for any other reason.

Hmm. The English language rulebook says:
Quote:
The Monster in Tokyo cannot use the (heart) result on the dice (but can heal using cards).


Which makes it sound like you can't use hearts for anything. I wonder if different rulebooks got translated differently?
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Kurt
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StormKnight wrote:
Quote:
You can't use heart results to heal yourself while in Tokyo. You can use them for any other reason.

Hmm. The English language rulebook says:
Quote:
The Monster in Tokyo cannot use the (heart) result on the dice (but can heal using cards).


Which makes it sound like you can't use hearts for anything. I wonder if different rulebooks got translated differently?

Interesting. I have to go check that myself now. It would make sense that you need to leave Tokyo to recuperate.

Another question: Can you use hearts on cards that would heal you to fix a shrink ray wound?
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Josh Malbon
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kdiddy13 wrote:
StormKnight wrote:
Quote:
You can't use heart results to heal yourself while in Tokyo. You can use them for any other reason.

Hmm. The English language rulebook says:
Quote:
The Monster in Tokyo cannot use the (heart) result on the dice (but can heal using cards).


Which makes it sound like you can't use hearts for anything. I wonder if different rulebooks got translated differently?

Interesting. I have to go check that myself now. It would make sense that you need to leave Tokyo to recuperate.

Another question: Can you use hearts on cards that would heal you to fix a shrink ray wound?


I read it that you just can't use the hearts to heal. The other means for getting rid of shrink ray and poison or using cards to heal sound like good play to me.
 
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Brian M
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Quote:
Another question: Can you use hearts on cards that would heal you to fix a shrink ray wound?

The shrink ray and poison specify that you can "use a (heart) to remove a counter", while the cards that heal just say "heal (X) damage", so I would say that you can't use them to remove counters - they don't actually give you hearts.
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Yiorgos Golfinopoulos
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StormKnight wrote:
Quote:
You can't use heart results to heal yourself while in Tokyo. You can use them for any other reason.

Hmm. The English language rulebook says:
Quote:
The Monster in Tokyo cannot use the (heart) result on the dice (but can heal using cards).


Which makes it sound like you can't use hearts for anything. I wonder if different rulebooks got translated differently?


Yes, the English translation is totally unprofessional.

Check this out: http://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/67372/unofficial-faq-and-c...
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Brian M
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Wow. There are some pretty major differences from the French to the English versions in there. I wonder which are correct?
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Kurt
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StormKnight wrote:
Wow. There are some pretty major differences from the French to the English versions in there. I wonder which are correct?

As long as you aren't playing for money*, whatever rules your group agrees to.

I have a feeling that there will always exist those games that require new aquantances familiar with the game to give a run down on their interpretations before starting. This is one of them.

Edit: *Actually, even then, as long as everyone agrees.
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Brian M
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Quote:
As long as you aren't playing for money*, whatever rules your group agrees to.

There's a version of the rules that's correct regardless of which version we actually play with
 
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Kurt
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StormKnight wrote:
Quote:
As long as you aren't playing for money*, whatever rules your group agrees to.

There's a version of the rules that's correct regardless of which version we actually play with

We're heading into a meta/Quantum/Zen/nature of science discussion, but I'd put forth the theory that however your group interpretted the rules is correct until an outside force proves that you were incorrect. How you play the game now is to the best of your understanding, the correct way to play and will remain the correct way until proven otherwise (barring house rules one knowingly puts in).

Before the internet, people read the rules and played games the way they played them, being a 'best interpretation' of the ruleset at that time. There was no right or wrong until two experienced players from different groups met up and disagreed on their interpretations.

But that's all philosophical. In this case, it would seem that there was some amount of not appreciating the need for specificity when translating these rules from French (the original language, correct?).
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Brian M
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I would disagree with you completely. The designer intended the game to be played a certain way, that is the correct way to play the game.

Note that I do not say "to our taste", "the way we're going to play", or even "best". Just "correct"

I find it interesting and useful to understand what the designer meant, even if that's not how I plan to play.

One of the odd things here is that the King of Tokyo rules, considered in just the English rules, are actually quite clear - the only confusion is coming from different people with different rules.
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Kurt
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StormKnight wrote:
I would disagree with you completely. The designer intended the game to be played a certain way, that is the correct way to play the game.

Note that I do not say "to our taste", "the way we're going to play", or even "best". Just "correct"

I find it interesting and useful to understand what the designer meant, even if that's not how I plan to play.

One of the odd things here is that the King of Tokyo rules, considered in just the English rules, are actually quite clear - the only confusion is coming from different people with different rules.

Again, I would argue that "correct" is arbitrary and what you are actually saying is "intended". If there is no outside perspective and you never knew there was a debate, there would be no other correct way to play than the way that you understand. The only time 'correct' comes into doubt or question is through outside influence or through asking about 'intent' of the designer.

If neither outside observation or intent changes one's opinion, then as far as any participant is aware or concerned, they are playing the correct way.

Without having seen the French rules, you have said that the English rules are perfectly clear. Had we not seen the French rules there would have been little doubt that we were playing the game correctly. Now that we have, we bring in to doubt our concept of 'correct'.

I believe the only absolute is likely to be what the designer intended, and without talking to them directly that can only be inferred. Or, until the designer weighs in on a rule, the 'correct' understanding of the rules is at best a hypothesis.

Nothing like a semantics and philosophical debate to round out the week.

For the record, I too enjoy hearing about designer intent and enjoyed reading the French version of the rules as well.
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Brian M
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Yes, I think this is just a matter of semantics. I think its possible to be incorrect even if you don't know you're incorrect.
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Kurt
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StormKnight wrote:
Yes, I think this is just a matter of semantics. I think its possible to be incorrect even if you don't know you're incorrect.

I believe that is correct.

Seriously though, I've really enjoyed this ridiculous conversation.
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Brian M
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On a complete side note and way off topic, I recall the CCG Rage, where my girlfriend and I had been playing a while and thought we knew the rules all just fine. Another couple we knew had also been playing, separately and knew how to play just fine. Then we all got together - and discovered we'd each been playing completely differently!

I don't think King of Tokyo has any problems that serious
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Kurt
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StormKnight wrote:
On a complete side note and way off topic, I recall the CCG Rage, where my girlfriend and I had been playing a while and thought we knew the rules all just fine. Another couple we knew had also been playing, separately and knew how to play just fine. Then we all got together - and discovered we'd each been playing completely differently!

I don't think King of Tokyo has any problems that serious

Agreed. At worst it would be minor disagreements over things like healing the Shrink Ray in Tokyo, and even then I imagine they'd be cleared up pretty quickly.
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Michael Deacon
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It would be great if the game designer could offer an FAQ to clear up any areas where different interpretations could arise.

This would make the game 'complete' in my eyes.

For some reason if I feel like there are two (or several) ways to interpret a rule and I am not sure which is the 'correct' one (game designers intention) it kind of annoys me. I thought this was a fun little game until I started having these little rules questions pop up around the special power cards. I haven't played it since.
 
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Kurt
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musici wrote:
For some reason if I feel like there are two (or several) ways to interpret a rule and I am not sure which is the 'correct' one (game designers intention) it kind of annoys me. I thought this was a fun little game until I started having these little rules questions pop up around the special power cards. I haven't played it since.

That's unfortunate. The more I play it, the more I enjoy it. Light fun, push your luck. Fits the bill for a quick lunch game or game with the kids (my 4 year old is very good at it....).

As per the earlier semantics debate, I'd recommend that when you come up short of designer intervention on a ruling, thinking about the intent of the game, and then agree as a group to play it that way.

And for the record (as it's worth reiterating as it was the original point of the thread), Storm Knight is correct. I also checked the rules last night and it says that you can't use any "Heart" tokens you've rolled while in Tokyo/Tokyo Bay. It doesn't specify what you use them for, but simply that you can't use them at all. So I think it's more than safe to conclude it really does mean you can't remove poison/shrink tokens while in Tokyo.

And since heal cards only say "heal" (no hearts involved), it all points to needing to leave Tokyo to get rid of tokens.
 
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