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Sergeants Miniatures Game: Day of Days» Forums » Rules

Subject: More questions, off board, terrain modifiers, etc.. rss

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Scott Smith
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Ok a few more question from our games on Friday.

1) At set-up if all units are off map can they be sighted or shot at? (as if they were one square off the board)?.

2) Questions about which squares terrain modifiers contribute to certain actions.
a) Sighting states: Remember that the sighting range is reduced by the LOOK terrain modifier for each square that the line of sight goes through.
Does this include both the square of both the soldier being sighted and the one doing the sighting?

Example: On a hypothetical board that in 1x4 sq and each square had a LOOK value of -1 would soldiers at opposite ends be sighting from 4 away at a -4 LOOK, or some lesser value?

b)Take Cover states: Using the Cover value of your Soldier, subtract the HIDE Terrain Effects value of all squares and landmarks that are on a straight line from your Soldier to the designated enemy Soldier. If the Cover value minus the Terrain modifiers is negative, your Soldier is
able to Take Cover – remove the spotted marker from him.

Same question as above regarding inclusion of squares the two soldiers reside and confirmed by example above in which each square has a minus -1 hide.

c) Same question with Shoot which states:
"To determine distance, lay the ruler on a straight line between the Soldiers involved in the distance check. All squares cut by the line of sight are counted in the distance. Same example with -1 SHOOT in each square. In this case of shooting it does appear the Designer's Note does indicate that the square occupied by the shooter is not counted but that the square of the soldier being shot does.

d) Move is easy as it states that only the starting square is counted.

Sorry that was kind of long. Double sorry that I just thought of another question. New thread incoming.
 
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Kevin Duke
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#1 is a slam dunk. No.

I've asked Jeff to write a detailed discussion of the other points.
 
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Jeff Billings
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Einroy wrote:
2) Questions about which squares terrain modifiers contribute to certain actions.
a) Sighting states: Remember that the sighting range is reduced by the LOOK terrain modifier for each square that the line of sight goes through.
Does this include both the square of both the soldier being sighted and the one doing the sighting?

Example: On a hypothetical board that in 1x4 sq and each square had a LOOK value of -1 would soldiers at opposite ends be sighting from 4 away at a -4 LOOK, or some lesser value?


All modifiers are applied to the numbers on the soldier card.

If the modifiers along a Line of Sight to a hidden enemy has a LOOK -4 total then the soldier's LOOK Sight 17 Sq. is reduced by -4 to Sight 13 Sq. The Distance between the two figures is a simple count, if it is less than the Sight distance the hidden figure is sighted.
 
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Jeff Billings
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Einroy wrote:
2) Questions about which squares terrain modifiers contribute to certain actions.
b)Take Cover states: Using the Cover value of your Soldier, subtract the HIDE Terrain Effects value of all squares and landmarks that are on a straight line from your Soldier to the designated enemy Soldier. If the Cover value minus the Terrain modifiers is negative, your Soldier is
able to Take Cover – remove the spotted marker from him.

Same question as above regarding inclusion of squares the two soldiers reside and confirmed by example above in which each square has a minus -1 hide.


Aagin, all modiiers are applied to the Soldiers Stats. In the case of Taking Cover, once a soldier is seen he is seen by everyone regardless of distance. The action of Taking Cover is an attempt to actively "get out of sight." His skill is represented by a number listed in squares (Sq.) and it is modified by the HIDE # of the square he occupies if he is in terrain, and the HIDE # of the squares along a line of sight to the nearest enemy soldier.

Some soldiers are skilled woodsmen, or have other skills and get negative modifiers to their Cover #. It is possible for a soldier to start with a Cover -1 Sq. value which will almost always allow the soldier to hide successfully if cover is available.
 
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Jeff Billings
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Einroy wrote:
2) Questions about which squares terrain modifiers contribute to certain actions.
c) Same question with Shoot which states:
"To determine distance, lay the ruler on a straight line between the Soldiers involved in the distance check. All squares cut by the line of sight are counted in the distance. Same example with -1 SHOOT in each square. In this case of shooting it does appear the Designer's Note does indicate that the square occupied by the shooter is not counted but that the square of the soldier being shot does.

d) Move is easy as it states that only the starting square is counted.


Again, all modifiers are applied to the soldiers values. for SHOOT.

Also, MOVE it is easier to modify the soldiers Walk or Climb values values at the start of the move and then just measure or count.

All modifiers work the same. Modify the soldiers numbers then count the distance and see what fits.

The terrain does not modify Draw or Hold Card values. Only Pin does that and it modifies the value on the soldier rounded down.

Hope this helps clear up modifiers.
 
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Jerry Tresman
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Jeff I read the question on less how the calculations work as to when the tile the soldier occupies is counted towards modifiers.

From the rulebook explanaion text I know for shoot that you do not count modifiers in the tile occupied by the shooter. IMHO the confusion is not helped by the different phrases used "Passed through", "cut" etc please define and stick to one phrase.

In shoot "all" as in ..all square cut by the line.." implies squares occupied by both soldiers inolved. However in Shoot this phrase is used and then it excludes the shooters tile. What if the shooter and target are in the same tile and it is is a -1 shoot tile? e.g. woods

It would be so much easier if every time a sighting line is used it was stated that is excludes the initiators tile and includes the 'targets' tile, or similar.

I didn't take the game to the club meet as there are too many unanswerd questions, I did not want to put them off. I admire you wanting to keep the page count down, but perhaps remove the tile layout pictures and add tighter rules for the Look actions.

A) LOOK : Do you count modifiers in the tile occupied by the soldier sighting.

B) HIDE : Do you count modifiers in the tile occupied by the soldier trying to hide.

C) HIDE : sighting by enemy :- Do you count modifiers in the tile occupied by the nominated enemy soldier trying to sight the hiding soldier.

The more I play the more wooly the rules seem although 1.5 is far better than the rules in the box. Personally I prefer to see the rules in the main sections and not in the examples/designers notes. When checking a rule in SMG I find I have to read every scrap on a page in case I miss something. Following the forum explanations I now have no clue as to which tiles are counted for A, B and C. the only one I know for sure is shoot as that was spelt out in the designers note.

 
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Jeff Billings
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Starman54 wrote:

A) LOOK : Do you count modifiers in the tile occupied by the soldier sighting.

B) HIDE : Do you count modifiers in the tile occupied by the soldier trying to hide.

C) HIDE : sighting by enemy :- Do you count modifiers in the tile occupied by the nominated enemy soldier trying to sight the hiding soldier.


Let me see if I can do a better job of explaining this.

A) LOOK - No the sighting soldier is like a firing soldier, the distance count and the modifiers exclude the square/landmark that the sighting soldier is in. However if the target soldier is in the same square/landmark as the sighting soldier then the target soldier gets the modifier if he occupies terrain, (trees, building, crops, ...) everything except clear ground and roads.

B) Yes because the soldier is trying to hide in the terrain he occupies, it is the enemy soldier that is trying to maintain sighting during a HIDE.

C) No, the soldier looking only needs his eyes unblocked to LOOK. The enemy soldiers body could be behind a tree, wall, bush or other obscuring terrain. That would not preclude an ability to look, so to keep it simple we don't count the enemy soldiers square for terrain. Only the modifiers of the square the soldier is trying to hide in and the squares intervening.

Keep the questions coming and we will do our best to get a clear set of rules.

As an aside - I am working diligently to get the rules as reasonably concise as possible and still be understandable. Our goal is to not frighten new players with a large rules set.

Is it an acceptable option to design interactive web tutorials to clarify some of the basic concepts?
 
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Jerry Tresman
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Thanks for the answers A and B were as I guessed , C I wasn't sure in case you wanted a dense tile to be difficult to see out of , like bocage.


I had the impression , wrongly , that you weren't going to issue anymore changes, I am relieved you are working on them. I find myself in Play Test Proof Read mode , I have done my fair share for GMT, LnL , DVG etc. although that was on private forums and pre-publish.

Just moaned at Kevin via geek mail as my frustrations were getting the better of me and it was his original posts and encouragement that drew me in, although I feel he wishes I wouldnt challange him.

The web tutorials would be good for novices, act as a taster and to train the trainer , IMHO a lot of the players will be club and social gamers that are meeting to play and normally only a small number of the group will be the rules gurus and trainers. at competitons its not unusual to have players of ten or twenty years standing still turning to one ot two peolpe for advice.


Sped your time on just adding / rewording the rules and getting the product to market. Have alook at the General post entitled future.
 
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Jeff Billings
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Rules are pesky. We kept SMG close to the vest so we could have our innovations be a surprise. The system would have been a bit better if we could have had open play tests. This was one of those things we wanted to keep quiet about until we were sure we could build it as a product.

I will definitely release an update on Oct. 3.
 
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Jerry Tresman
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Jeff Billings wrote:
Rules are pesky. We kept SMG close to the vest so we could have our innovations be a surprise. The system would have been a bit better if we could have had open play tests. This was one of those things we wanted to keep quite about until we were sure we could build it as a product.

I will definitely release an update on Oct. 3.


I just added to my previous post. I cant wait till Oct 3, I had hoped to present to the club and also play a few games.

Perhaps an interim FAQ is needed. Now you have answered the questions I don't really need a web tutorial , a strategy tutorial may help some.
I actually want to play it not watch it and its always very difficult to unlearn and re learn rules , which is why I pushed for the answers.
 
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Jerry Tresman
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A minor nitpick but the rules say to subtract all modifiers from the soldiers value. It should read sum all modifiers, if you subtract a negative number it is added. By summing cover and terrain values you always get the correct result . I wonder if originally all modifiers were positive.

So a cover value of 3 plus terrain modifiers of -2,+1,-1,-1 = 0. Whereas the rules taken literally would be 3 - -3 = 6.

Also summing is easier to do e.g.as in always add the soldiers value to the sum of all applicable terrain modifiers.
 
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Marty Bosak
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Hi Jeff, that would be great if you could make a video and go through the setup and the first scenario showing all the cards and the sections you are utilizing and explaining the actions taken.Maybe its too late to start a game tonight but I was having a hard time getting started.
 
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Jeff Billings
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We have talked about doing a video training series for SMG it is still on hold due to demands for new product and software for the website. I will try to open some time to create the tutorials.
 
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