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Subject: Are we doing something wrong? rss

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EnderWizard
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I have a decent number of plays under my belt and this is what has happened each and every time without exception: the first player not only wins but they win 20 to 1 or 2 or even 0 in a 2-player game or in a 4-player game the first player wins 12 to 1, 2, or 0. In our games so far, if you don't go first you don't score more than a couple of Glory and you won't win.

I've pored over the rules and can't seem to figure out if we're playing this game incorrectly. I see there is a bit of contention over the "first player wins every time" thing but what about the scoring ranges I've mentioned above? The player *always* trounces the others every single time. The game was fun but now just feels like an exercise in futility - and I really want to love this game!

Anyone else experiencing this? We've even played 4-player games up to a Glory limit of 20 and it doesn't matter: first player always wins by a ridiculously huge margin.

I can't help but feel like we're doing something wrong.
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Tim Fiscus
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Based on my limited experience, you are probably doing something incorrectly. Can you give a brief summary of how a typical game for you plays out? Otherwise it is hard to figure out your big error.
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Francis K. Lalumiere
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HuckmanT wrote:
Based on my limited experience, you are probably doing something incorrectly. Can you give a brief summary of how a typical game for you plays out? Otherwise it is hard to figure out your big error.

I completely agree with Tim.

Spill the beans, man. We'll tell you which ones are rotten.
 
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EnderWizard
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It's tough to say. As we played the last few games we did it with the rules open and read along to them as we played out every player's turn because we felt like we were doing something wrong. I'm just hoping I'm not alone in this.
 
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Jim Maxcy
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Here's a guess. Are you discarding creatures as you score them?

If the start player gets a lot of creatures and keeps attacking with them each turn and continues scoring with them things will easily get way out of control fast!
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Deckard Cole
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I've not experienced this at all. It must just be chance. I've seen friends behind by a substantial amount (6-10 points) win in 2 rounds of good rolls. It would not make sense that 1st player has an advantage imo.
You could have 5x dragons in your hand and roll all quiddity..or roll all dragons and have no quid to summon them. There's too much chance involved. As a matter of fact I started feeling like I had a disadvantage going first last night as I would summon something and have nothing to attack then by the 3rd players turn I'd lost everything. It seems more like odd coincidence than anything rules related (the rules being pretty straight forward).

EDIT: the above post is a mistake we made 1st game and it's true 1st players owns the game most times. If that's your mistake that's your answer.
 
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EnderWizard
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Something that kept bugging us is how attacking and defending work.
Correct me if I'm wrong:

When attacking, you attack every other player. Add up all the attack values of your creature dice, apply any bonuses you might get from spells and bursts, and that total number is what you attack with regardless of how many creatures you have in your ready pool. Then, compare that attack total against a player's defending creatures. The defending player can choose which of his creatures defend first. If the attack total meets or exceeds that defending creature's dfense value, that creature is destroyed and the remaining attack value (difference between the attack total and that first defending creature's defense value) then gets applied to the next defending creature, if any. However, if the total attack value does not exceed the defending creature's defense, the attack is thwarted without any repercussion. The surviving defending creatures don't get to attack back.

That's the big part that feels wrong to us. Often the first player gets his creatures out first and is able to keep everyone else from readying creatures until they can score glory with them. It seems like defending creatures should be able to apply their damage back to the attacker much like in Magic the Gathering.

Unless we're doing that wrong.
 
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EnderWizard
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arcnarenth wrote:
Here's a guess. Are you discarding creatures as you score them?

If the start player gets a lot of creatures and keeps attacking with them each turn and continues scoring with them things will easily get way out of control fast!


Son of a b@&$! I can't believe after all these games, with at least three pairs of eyes going over the rules, that we missed that one detail!

That's exactly what we're doing wrong! I think we felt like once we played a creature that it stayed in the ready area, much like summoning creatures in Magic.

Gah! Thank you! My sanity has been restored!

Edit: just wanted to add that (1) I look forward to our next game and (2) I feel like a complete idiot. Thanks again
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Chris Ferejohn
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Ender Wiggin wrote:
arcnarenth wrote:
Here's a guess. Are you discarding creatures as you score them?

If the start player gets a lot of creatures and keeps attacking with them each turn and continues scoring with them things will easily get way out of control fast!


Son of a b@&$! I can't believe after all these games, with at least three pairs of eyes going over the rules, that we missed that one detail!

That's exactly what we're doing wrong! I think we felt like once we played a creature that it stayed in the ready area, much like summoning creatures in Magic.

Gah! Thank you! My sanity has been restored!

Edit: just wanted to add that (1) I look forward to our next game and (2) I feel like a complete idiot. Thanks again


Wow. Arcnerenth gets the "rules whisperer" microbadge.
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Chuck Smith
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If I'm not mistaken, some of these rules issues can be solved by watching a tutorial video before playing your first game. When I first played Thunderstone with a group of people, having seen a video first helped keep us from making a lot of newbie rules mistakes.
 
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Gastel Etswane
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I always think that you get glory as the creatures return 'home' (to your used pile). So they score as they are changing from the Ready Area to the Used Pile.

I find some of the timing in this game a little sharp, meaning that there is a very specific turn of events that sometimes slows down the game.
 
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EnderWizard
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Believe me, when I started the post I wasn't sure I should've bothered. I didn't really think anyone would be able to nail the problem with such scant details and I felt like I was making a call for a mind reader to help my group out. I guess I was really just wondering if anyone else was running into the same problem and, if so, maybe we could've solved the problem together. Thanks to arcnarenth's mind reading abilities our group has been saved.

Funny enough, I did watch a video on the game and I *still* managed to miss this extremely important detail. This has been the single biggest and most public "d'oh" moment I've ever had!

I'm sure it won't be my last.
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Bartosz Sawicki
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take it easy I guess each and every gamer here happened to miss that single rule in one of the games and ruined the whole experience. Good for you it's just a game that takes 30 minutes, and not an 8 hours marathon that ends prematurely after 7 hours with the simple quote: holy crap, we are doing it all wrong
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EnderWizard
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I wanted to report that I played a 2-player game last night and with the correct rules the game is a thousand times better and isn't over within five minutes. Thanks again
 
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Paul Oakley
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Ender Wiggin wrote:
Something that kept bugging us is how attacking and defending work.
Correct me if I'm wrong:

When attacking, you attack every other player. Add up all the attack values of your creature dice, apply any bonuses you might get from spells and bursts, and that total number is what you attack with regardless of how many creatures you have in your ready pool. Then, compare that attack total against a player's defending creatures. The defending player can choose which of his creatures defend first. If the attack total meets or exceeds that defending creature's dfense value, that creature is destroyed and the remaining attack value (difference between the attack total and that first defending creature's defense value) then gets applied to the next defending creature, if any. However, if the total attack value does not exceed the defending creature's defense, the attack is thwarted without any repercussion. The surviving defending creatures don't get to attack back.

That's the big part that feels wrong to us. Often the first player gets his creatures out first and is able to keep everyone else from readying creatures until they can score glory with them. It seems like defending creatures should be able to apply their damage back to the attacker much like in Magic the Gathering.

Unless we're doing that wrong.


I've only played 1 game and watched a few videos, but I think you might be doing this wrong too. If your opponents successfully defend against your attack, you still get to summon your creatures, you just don't kill theirs. You cannot "keep everyone else from readying creatures" just by having a large defense.
 
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EnderWizard
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Thisisnotasmile wrote:
I've only played 1 game and watched a few videos, but I think you might be doing this wrong too. If your opponents successfully defend against your attack, you still get to summon your creatures, you just don't kill theirs. You cannot "keep everyone else from readying creatures" just by having a large defense.


Nah, it's just poorly written. I didn't want to get into all the details at that point but what I meant was this: the first player was often able to get creatures to his ready area before anyone else and because we were playing it wrong (not putting them into used pile after scoring with them) that first player would keep amassing creatures turn after turn, effectively preventing any other player from being able to play any creatures of significance since they would keep getting destroyed by the first player's army of creatures that would keep proliferating turn after turn. However, since learning about the rule to move creatures into the used pile after scoring with them, this situation simply does not come up anymore. That's all I meant. Hope that makes sense.
 
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Stuart Ekin
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Ender Wiggin wrote:
arcnarenth wrote:
Here's a guess. Are you discarding creatures as you score them?

If the start player gets a lot of creatures and keeps attacking with them each turn and continues scoring with them things will easily get way out of control fast!


Son of a b@&$! I can't believe after all these games, with at least three pairs of eyes going over the rules, that we missed that one detail!

That's exactly what we're doing wrong! I think we felt like once we played a creature that it stayed in the ready area, much like summoning creatures in Magic.

Gah! Thank you! My sanity has been restored!

Edit: just wanted to add that (1) I look forward to our next game and (2) I feel like a complete idiot. Thanks again


Thank you so much for posting this...we were scoring 20 - 1 sort of results in a two player game and couldnt believe it was right. We missed exactly the same rule.....

 
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EnderWizard
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Brightspark101 wrote:
Thank you so much for posting this...we were scoring 20 - 1 sort of results in a two player game and couldnt believe it was right. We missed exactly the same rule.....



I'm happy to screw my game up for you!

Seriously, that's why I make sure I speak up, even if I don't think someone will be able help right away. With a community as large as BGG's is, there is bound to be at least one other person with the same concern, question, or problem... but there always needs to a "first person" to ask it.

My gaming group and I have now played a few games since implementing this rule and the game plays about 1,000 times better. I'm sure you'll agree!
 
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Stuart Ekin
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Ender Wiggin wrote:
Brightspark101 wrote:
Thank you so much for posting this...we were scoring 20 - 1 sort of results in a two player game and couldnt believe it was right. We missed exactly the same rule.....



I'm happy to screw my game up for you!

Seriously, that's why I make sure I speak up, even if I don't think someone will be able help right away. With a community as large as BGG's is, there is bound to be at least one other person with the same concern, question, or problem... but there always needs to a "first person" to ask it.

My gaming group and I have now played a few games since implementing this rule and the game plays about 1,000 times better. I'm sure you'll agree!


We played the game for the first time today, playing about 5 games, and really enjoyed it, but it was quite apparent that something wasn't right. Like you, we scoured the rules, but somehow missed this vital part - very weird!

Knowing what I know now, I am inclined to agree with you that the game could be 1000 times better when I next play it.

I actually wondered if it was one of these games that can be played with 2 players, but is actually so much better with 3 or 4.

Thank goodness I was wrong....

Hats off to you for posting - I couldn't agree more with you, there has to be someone to ask the question!

Looking forward to many more enjoyable games to come...
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