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Subject: Article "Why Muslims are still mad at America" rss

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Leo Zappa
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Just found a fascinating article regarding the Muslim world and America. I provide a link to the entire article below, but here is the summary which you will find at the end of the article:

...But perhaps most fundamentally, America’s relationship is most likely to improve as it comes to understand, accept and embrace the whole of Muslim society and the course of development that it has chosen for itself. Muslims believe that they are on a different path than the West . This path is central to their notion of their freedom to practice their religion. When they feel that America is threatening their religion and their aspirations, they grow resolutely hostile.

As Americans we may believe that it is not possible to blend such a form of religiosity and liberal values. Maybe Muslims will conclude this too. But only when Muslims perceive America as no longer being an obstacle to their endeavor will they be able to move forward in their discovery. And it is only then that America’s relationship with the Muslim world will become more amicable.


I find that I agree with the writer's notion of how the Muslim-American relationship has developed to date, and what needs to happen to make it better. As the 10th anniversary of 9/11 approaches, it is a good time to reflect on where we go from here as regards the Muslim world. What do the rest of you think?


http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/05/why-musli...
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desertfox2004 wrote:
Just found a fascinating article regarding the Muslim world and America. I provide a link to the entire article below, but here is the summary which you will find at the end of the article:

...But perhaps most fundamentally, America’s relationship is most likely to improve as it comes to understand, accept and embrace the whole of Muslim society and the course of development that it has chosen for itself. Muslims believe that they are on a different path than the West . This path is central to their notion of their freedom to practice their religion. When they feel that America is threatening their religion and their aspirations, they grow resolutely hostile.

As Americans we may believe that it is not possible to blend such a form of religiosity and liberal values. Maybe Muslims will conclude this too. But only when Muslims perceive America as no longer being an obstacle to their endeavor will they be able to move forward in their discovery. And it is only then that America’s relationship with the Muslim world will become more amicable.


I find that I agree with the writer's notion of how the Muslim-American relationship has developed to date, and what needs to happen to make it better. As the 10th anniversary of 9/11 approaches, it is a good time to reflect on where we go from here as regards the Muslim world. What do the rest of you think?


http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/05/why-musli...


I think they fundamentally want the rest of the world to live in Dhimmitude under Sharia law.

We are in a slow war with several cultures right now. They are just one of them.
 
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Which part of the Muslim world is being discussed? The Muslim nations of sub-Saharan Africa have markedly different interests than those of the Middle East and/or Maghrib. Even within the latter, both Turkey and Iran should be treated as distinct. Then there are the Muslim nations of southeast Asia. All this is to ignore the areas where Muslims are minority populations. The Muslim world is as diverse at least as the Christian world.
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maxo-texas wrote:

I think they fundamentally want the rest of the world to live in Dhimmitude under Sharia law.

If that were the case, why does Al-Qaeda-- whose stated goal is that end-- not have popular support in most of the Muslim world? Why aren't Muslim armies attacking weaker neighbors while backed by their gov'ts?
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whac3 wrote:
Which part of the Muslim world is being discussed? The Muslim nations of sub-Saharan Africa have markedly different interests than those of the Middle East and/or Maghrib. Even within the latter, both Turkey and Iran should be treated as distinct. Then there are the Muslim nations of southeast Asia. All this is to ignore the areas where Muslims are minority populations. The Muslim world is as diverse at least as the Christian world.


I saw on the news that all muslims are terrorists. Are you saying the news is wrong?!
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maxo-texas wrote:
desertfox2004 wrote:
Just found a fascinating article regarding the Muslim world and America. I provide a link to the entire article below, but here is the summary which you will find at the end of the article:

...But perhaps most fundamentally, America’s relationship is most likely to improve as it comes to understand, accept and embrace the whole of Muslim society and the course of development that it has chosen for itself. Muslims believe that they are on a different path than the West . This path is central to their notion of their freedom to practice their religion. When they feel that America is threatening their religion and their aspirations, they grow resolutely hostile.

As Americans we may believe that it is not possible to blend such a form of religiosity and liberal values. Maybe Muslims will conclude this too. But only when Muslims perceive America as no longer being an obstacle to their endeavor will they be able to move forward in their discovery. And it is only then that America’s relationship with the Muslim world will become more amicable.


I find that I agree with the writer's notion of how the Muslim-American relationship has developed to date, and what needs to happen to make it better. As the 10th anniversary of 9/11 approaches, it is a good time to reflect on where we go from here as regards the Muslim world. What do the rest of you think?


http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/05/why-musli...


I think they fundamentally want the rest of the world to live in Dhimmitude under Sharia law.

We are in a slow war with several cultures right now. They are just one of them.


Is another one of them Christianity? Because I think they fundamentally want the rest of the world to live in a Jesus-centric theocracy.
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Perhaps so but that's what I think. Which was the question. What do you think?
 
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maxo-texas wrote:
Perhaps so but that's what I think. Which was the question. What do you think?

Macro;

To be blunt, if someone who was religious pulled that kind of crap, I've no doubt how you'd respond and you'd be right to do so. Being an atheist does not give one free license for anti-religious bigotry.
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whac3 wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
Perhaps so but that's what I think. Which was the question. What do you think?

Macro;

To be blunt, if someone who was religious pulled that kind of crap, I've no doubt how you'd respond and you'd be right to do so. Being an atheist does not give one free license for anti-religious bigotry.


I hear you but I'm getting tired of leading with an opinion and then people start off tearing it up without giving any opinions of their own. Mr "cowardly tax man" in the other thread for example.

Are things complex? Sure. There are millions of nice muslims who live ordinary lives and don't give a crap about the rest of the world.

But it is a war of values and some of these value systems are not compatible. The primary weapon of the various factions is outbreeding the other side. It's probably going to end badly in massive violence. Christianity these days relies on words a lot more than violence.

Christians have some issues but their fire is a pale shadow of islamics in the countries which they control. They passed the beheading, childrens cartoons showing the enemy as non-human, killing women who were raped, cutting off women's clitoris, stoning women, keeping girls in burning schoolhouses to die because they aren't wearing their burka's, "legal to have sex with a girl who can bear the weight of a man" phase between 60 and 350 years ago. It's happening right now- today in islamic countries.

And in various western countries, instead of conforming to the local culture, they are pushing for sharia law and killing their own daughters (not because they are whacked out over a divorce/adultery like most christians but just because the daughters are living according to local standards).

Are there christian murderers - sure. Do christians desire to push their values on the rest of society- yes. Does that mean that islamics are not desiring the same thing- No. Are they much more willing to mangle, kill, murder, mutiliate- absolutely.

If you doubt it, choose between taking a crucifix with jesus and putting it in piss or doing the same thing with a likeness of Mohammed. Well publicize your choice. With one- you'd get a lot of protest- maybe even beat up by someone with poor impulse control. With the other- you know you'd be dead or in hiding the rest of your life.

---

I don't agree it's bigotry to state the facts.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1874471.stm

http://answering-islam.org/Sharia/fem_circumcision.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi4VFuRSBqM
13 year old stoned to death.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2010/0512/Cartoonist-La...
(no link but another artist Theo van Gogh was killed for speech/drawing)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/18/andres-serrano-p...
(attack the artwork but not murder the artist)

http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/07/21/new-saudi-fatwa-de...
Okay to marry and have sex with very young girls.

http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/2011/07/13/indonesia-mus...

---

More likely problems with christianity are...
Prayer in School, Blue Laws, Prayer in Government, Allowing Christians to use Government facilities while refusing use for other religions (sometimes) and atheists (often!), Prohibition of birth control funding locally and abroad, adultery and gay behavior by christian leaders, prohibiting gay marriage and suppressing texts or funding which supports evolution or other facts which contradict their faith. Christian suicide bombers are rare.

---

I don't necessarily view terrorism as related to islamics. It's possible that terrorists would exist anyway and just use islam as their justification to take over hotels and murder people in India.

I do view most of the rest above (especially the atrocious treatment of women and a desire for sharia law) as core behavior of the religion- even many "moderate" followers. It's not much different than "blue laws" except more extreme behavior is permitted. But we got RID of blue laws. I don't want them back from some new more passionate religion.

It's a common occurrence for something to happen which pisses off islamics and they start rioting and murdering their own people.

We seem to reserve that for winning big sports games (seriously-- wth, I could see if you lose- but denver and other places that won were irrational).

---
My comment above was not directed at you Whac- you state plainly what you believe in this and other threads. But some folks launch bombs and take no stands themselves.

---

And to confirm my overall bias. None of this matters. We are all seriously screwed with in 2 to 3 generations (40-60 years). The exact cause I can't predict but I think things end badly- probably with war or a created disease. It's just getting too easy- too inexpensive- resources are getting too short- delivery and supply chains are too delicate. My goal is mostly to live out my life in peace and hopefully not have things turn to badly before I kick off.

If I lose access to my meds, I'm done sooner.

---

Oh and it occurs to me where a lot of this negative attitude comes from. It was on 9/11. On the news there were videos from all over the world of "ordinary muslims" cheering in the streets. Not extremists and there were millions of them in countries all over the world celebrating in the streets. Just ordinary folks happy that thousands of people had been murdered.

That was kinda the defining moment for me. It'll take a lot to undo that. It will take clear evidence of widespread condemnation of suicide bombers and a cessation of all these "charity" donations to murderous organizations. I think they do not have my best interests at heart.
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To someone like myself who lives in a country with a significant Muslim citizen and non-citizen population and who has worked with and known Muslims on a daily basis, I do not think the media sources available to you are reflective of reality. The picture one gets of what is going on in this part of the world and this region is so highly selective and distorted as to be surreal, and yet I am aware of no better sources available to you.
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maxo-texas wrote:
Perhaps so but that's what I think. Which was the question. What do you think?


I think it's as silly to ascribe a single common motivation to all 1.5 billion adherents of Islam as it is to ascribe a single common motivation to all 2.1 billion adherents of Christianity.
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"Why Muslims are still mad at America" is about as sensible title as "why the Irish hate the British"

(That is, to be clear, it's not a very sensible title)
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maxo-texas wrote:
Oh and it occurs to me where a lot of this negative attitude comes from. It was on 9/11. On the news there were videos from all over the world of "ordinary muslims" cheering in the streets. Not extremists and there were millions of them in countries all over the world celebrating in the streets. Just ordinary folks happy that thousands of people had been murdered.


Do have any evidence of this? I remember seeing a few Palestinians in the street. I also remember official condolences from Muslim countries, including Iran. I think this is something that is growing in the retelling.
 
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rshipley wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
Oh and it occurs to me where a lot of this negative attitude comes from. It was on 9/11. On the news there were videos from all over the world of "ordinary muslims" cheering in the streets. Not extremists and there were millions of them in countries all over the world celebrating in the streets. Just ordinary folks happy that thousands of people had been murdered.


Do have any evidence of this? I remember seeing a few Palestinians in the street. I also remember official condolences from Muslim countries, including Iran. I think this is something that is growing in the retelling.


It was on all the major news media after the event. Huge crowds of people celebrating and merry in the streets. I thought it might be difficult to find 12 year old news video reports.

However... if you google "9/11 muslims celebrating" there are many pages of hits.

After some "youtube" videos which you can peruse,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rmo64fcvKs0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-9JpRytCx0

Then a "fair" article written lately...

http://www.usnews.com/news/religion/articles/2008/04/07/why-...

Quote:
Heads of Muslim nations and leaders of Islamic organizations emphasized that Islam was incompatible with terrorism and intolerance. And the spirit of the oft-quoted line from the Koran, "Let there be no compulsion in religion," seemed to reassure most of America's religious, civic, and political leaders. "The face of terror," President Bush confidently announced, "is not the true faith of Islam."

But if all that were true, why did so many inhabitants of the long Muslim "street," stretching from Morocco to Indonesia, appear to be overjoyed by what Osama bin Laden's henchmen had accomplished?


I work with people of all faiths every day. I don't have a knee jerk reaction and I don't walk around provoking people about religion in daily life. I'm not anti-islamic. But I do think the "peaceful" islamics have a ways to go in enforcing the rule of law on peaceful values on violent islamics.

I expect more of them. I imagine they are a little less willing to push back for the same reason the comedy network is willing to disparage every religion except islam. Because of fear of violence and death from their fellow islamics.
 
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Your examples proved my point. They only showed some Palestinians, not millions all over the world. Both videos even used the same footage. You have to be careful of the way a TV picture can make things look much more widespread than they really are. The Palestinian issue isn't even about religion - they see us as the main supporter of a regime that brutally oppresses them.
 
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What part of "But if all that were true, why did so many inhabitants of the long Muslim "street," stretching from Morocco to Indonesia, appear to be overjoyed by what Osama bin Laden's henchmen had accomplished?" proves your example?
 
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I was referring to the evidence of the youtube videos, not the unsupported hearsay from the article.
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maxo-texas wrote:
rshipley wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
Oh and it occurs to me where a lot of this negative attitude comes from. It was on 9/11. On the news there were videos from all over the world of "ordinary muslims" cheering in the streets. Not extremists and there were millions of them in countries all over the world celebrating in the streets. Just ordinary folks happy that thousands of people had been murdered.


Do have any evidence of this? I remember seeing a few Palestinians in the street. I also remember official condolences from Muslim countries, including Iran. I think this is something that is growing in the retelling.


It was on all the major news media after the event. Huge crowds of people celebrating and merry in the streets. I thought it might be difficult to find 12 year old news video reports.

However... if you google "9/11 muslims celebrating" there are many pages of hits.

After some "youtube" videos which you can peruse,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rmo64fcvKs0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-9JpRytCx0

Then a "fair" article written lately...

http://www.usnews.com/news/religion/articles/2008/04/07/why-...

Quote:
Heads of Muslim nations and leaders of Islamic organizations emphasized that Islam was incompatible with terrorism and intolerance. And the spirit of the oft-quoted line from the Koran, "Let there be no compulsion in religion," seemed to reassure most of America's religious, civic, and political leaders. "The face of terror," President Bush confidently announced, "is not the true faith of Islam."

But if all that were true, why did so many inhabitants of the long Muslim "street," stretching from Morocco to Indonesia, appear to be overjoyed by what Osama bin Laden's henchmen had accomplished?


I work with people of all faiths every day. I don't have a knee jerk reaction and I don't walk around provoking people about religion in daily life. I'm not anti-islamic. But I do think the "peaceful" islamics have a ways to go in enforcing the rule of law on peaceful values on violent islamics.

I expect more of them. I imagine they are a little less willing to push back for the same reason the comedy network is willing to disparage every religion except islam. Because of fear of violence and death from their fellow islamics.


First: The two videos you linked to showed a lot of duplicate footage, and the term "huge crowds" seems a little overblown for what they showed.

Second: Which do you think was more likely to be recorded and shown - the Muslims who celebrated the 9/11 attacks, or the ones who were as horrified by the attacks as everyone else?

Third: Why would the actions of several hundred (or even 1,000 or 10,000 or 100,000) out of a billion and a half Muslims translate in your mind to a blanket statement about all Muslims?
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maxo-texas wrote:
cutting off women's clitoris,


This is an East African tradition and predates the arrival of Islam into the region.

 
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I think a difficulty in talking about US-Islamic relationships is getting tangled in individual instances and US domestic politics, and losing sight of the general sweep of history. Maybe a good example of this difficulty is Israel: founded in Holocaust guilt, the US is just never going to abandon Israel for the foreseeable future; it would take some Arab state being a stronger, more reliable ally for at least fifty years, and the clock hasn't even started on those fifty years. So, Israel is off the table for the US, but the only thing on the table for some around it. But focusing on Israel is looking at one tree in the forest.

The general sweep is pretty straightforward: we (initially with the European colonial powers) went in to get oil. You don't generally see the US worrying much about Chad or Burma or Borneo: no oil; no economic interest. (Though oil isn't our only economic interest.) At the point we don't need oil, we'll stop caring about Islamic countries, and we'll each go off and have whatever cultures we want. For now, I'm pretty optimistic about reaching this point in the next decade or two (though I wish we hadn't wasted decades before disentangling ourselves from the region).

At that point, Muslims can go ahead and be the Amish of Arabia, and who cares? If they want to kick out Coke and McD and other US companies, I really don't have a problem with that. Not a critical US interest.

That's not to say we won't interact and have continuing problems. Christian evangelists/crusaders will continue to annoy Muslims, and Islamic evangelists/jihadists will continue to annoy Christians. This bilateral religious imperialism has been going on for thirteen or fourteen hundred years, and I don't see any reason either side will stop. But once the economic justification for committing huge forces into the region goes away, and oil money stops flowing into the region, I think most of the heat will go away.

And without oil revenues, my guess is that Islamic Economics will epically fail compared to Western Economics. Certainly some Islamic countries are taking steps toward a post-oil economy, but I don't really see that they're moving back to the technological leadership culture they had so long ago.
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Conversely:

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maxo-texas wrote:
I imagine they are a little less willing to push back for the same reason the comedy network is willing to disparage every religion except islam.


Ah, man. Did I miss the comedy central roast of Shinto again! soblue
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maxo-texas wrote:
What part of "But if all that were true, why did so many inhabitants of the long Muslim "street," stretching from Morocco to Indonesia, appear to be overjoyed by what Osama bin Laden's henchmen had accomplished?" proves your example?


This begs the question... where there any non Muslims celebrating (even, quietly - China, Russia, Cuba, Canada, etc...) and were there any Muslims that mourned or denounced these events?

There is extremism, hatred and violence with every religion and every "ism". Humans are the problem... not any specific religion or ideology.
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Stirlingmoomoo wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
cutting off women's clitoris,


This is an East African tradition and predates the arrival of Islam into the region.



That's true... however...

Quote:

Religious views on Female genital mutilation (FGM) have often been highly critical, although the medical phenomenon appears to be concentrated in Islamic areas, and not in Jewish or Christian regions. Evidence suggests that female genital cutting might be a cultural relic from pre-monotheistic African tribal religions, given that the practice is mentioned as far back as 163 BC. Muslim scholars have often been divided on whether it should be considered as a non-religious traditional custom, or whether it should be specifically condemned by religious authorities.


Then skip down and read the section on religions.
Christian- not part.
Jewish- not part
Islam:
Mixed. Some against. Some for.
The Shafi'i and Hanbali schools advocate female genital mutilation, while the Hanafi and Maliki and describe it as sunnah.[26][27]
Sunni: Mixed but Consensus is it is for males, not females.

However:
Quote:
In the Arabian peninsula, Types I and II FGM are usually performed, often referred to as "Sunna circumcision," especially among Afro-Arabs (ethnic groups of African descent are more likely to prefer infibulation). The practice occurs particularly in northern Saudi Arabia, southern Jordan, and northern Iraq (Kurdistan).[60][61] In the Iraqi village of Hasira, a study found that 60 percent of the females reported having undergone FGM.[60]


Elsewhere: Coptic Christians practice it. Egyptian Islamic clerics are for it.

OTH,
Indonesia isn't in africa or arabia:
http://artsyspot.com/female-circumcision-in-indonesia/
Quote:
9-month-old girl waiting for their turn to the procedure of circumcision.


Other articles for Malaysia ... by muslims

and

Quote:
FGM is also practiced among Bohra Muslim populations in parts of India

FGM == female genital mutilation.

The practice is concentrated in Africa, but like male circumcision has strong ties to Islam and is practiced around the world.

I'm willing to grant that...
a) a lot of muslims are not for it.
b) militant islamics probably don't kill people over this issue (like they have killed pre-teen females for being schooled in more than one country).

Basic point: Islamic females living in western countries have western rights. I'm not willing or interested in going to war with other countries internal abuse of their citizens. It's dumb when america does that. I'm okay with educational efforts or denying aid to educational requirements.


---

Oh and cede the point on the videos of other countries celebrating. They are written indications of celebrations in indonesia, malaysia and among other islamic countries but no video that i have been able to find with reasonable effort. I'll go further and say if there was video evidence- I think I should have been able to find it.
 
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William Boykin
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News Flash!

People don't like it when you poke them with a stick!!

Another News Flash!!!

When you stop poking people with sticks, sometimes, they will get over being angry with you for having poked them with a stick in the past.

And sometimes not.

Even Another News Flash!!! (Opinion!!)

Perhaps it would be better to stop poking people with sticks!!!!

Won't necessarily mean people like us, but it will save us the cost of sticks. Pointy sticks are getting more and more expensive these days.....

Darilian
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