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Subject: The Definitive thread for sorting out the time periods rss

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For the benefit of those who would like to keep their games of STFC timeframe pure, I am going to try and sort out the ships and cards into their correct timeframe. When drawing ships and building decks, you will just need to select from the correct timeline.

As far as I can see, there are only 2 potential timeframes:

- Kirk Era (including all the original series movies)
- Picard Era (this will include DS9 and Voyager)

One could argue that a Galaxy-Class Starship like the USS Venture (same class as the Enterprise-D from TNG) shouldn't fight alongside with an advanced ship like the experimental USS Prometheus that was seen in Voyager, but I disagree. The time difference between them is not so great that there couldn't still be Galaxy class ships on active duty at the same time as the Prometheus.

So here we go. Suggestions are always welcome!

KIRK ERA

Ships:

Federation
#5/12 USS Excelsior, NCC-2000, Points: 3*
#9/12 USS Enterprise, NCC-1701-A, Points: 2
#10/12 USS Reliant, NCC-1864, Points: 2*
#11/12 USS Yosemite, NCC-19002, Points: 1*
Total: 8

Klingons
#4/12 IKS Kronos One, Points: 4*
#5/12 IKS T'Ong, Points: 4*
#6/12 IKS Gr'oth, Points: 3
#7/12 IKS Klothos, Points: 3
#11/12 IKS Qhondoq, Points: 1**
#12/12 IKS Somraw, Points: 1
Total: 16

Crew Cards:
Federation
James Tiberius Kirk, Dr. Leonard McCoy, Spock, Montgomery Scott, Hikaru Sulu, Admiral Cartwright

Klingons
Kor*, Kang*, Koloth*, General Chang, Korrd, Kolos, K'Temoc*

PICARD ERA

Ships:

Federation
#1/12 USS Enterprise, NCC-1701-E, Points: 6
#2/12 USS Venture, NCC-71854, Points: 5
#3/12 USS Prometheus, NX-59650 Points: 5
#4/12 USS Sutherland, NCC-72015, Points: 4
#5/12 USS Excelsior, NCC-2000, Points: 3*
#6/12 USS Yeager, NCC-61947, Points: 3
#7/12 USS Voyager, NCC-74858, Points: 3
#8/12 USS Defiant, NX-74205, Points: 3
#10/12 USS Reliant, NCC-1864, Points: 2*
#11/12 USS Yosemite, NCC-19002, Points: 1*
#12/12 USS Equinox, NCC-72381, Points: 1
Total: 33

Klingons
#1/12 IKS Negh'Var, Points: 6
#2/12 IKS Bortas (Vor'cha Class), Points: 5
#3/12 IKS Maht-H'a, Points: 5
#4/12 IKS Kronos One, Points: 4*
#5/12 IKS T'Ong, Points: 4*
#8/12 IKS Rotarran, Points: 2
#9/12 IKS Ch'tang, Points: 2
#10/12 IKS Korinar, Points: 2
Total: 30

Crew Cards:
Federation
Jean-Luc Picard, William T. Riker, Dr. Beverly Crusher, Geordi La Forge, Data, Tasha Yar, Reginald Barclay, Kathryn Janeway, Tom Paris, Neelix, Kes, The Doctor, Admiral Owen Paris, Worf, Miles O'brien, Quark, Odo, Admiral J.P. Hanson, Wesley Crusher

Klingons
Worf, Martok, Kurn, K'Mtor, Alexander Rhozenko, K'Ehleyr, Duras, Lursa, B'Etor, Konmel, Nu'daq, Kor*, Kang*, Koloth*, Gowron, K'Mpec, Vagh, Synon, Klag, K'Temoc*

* Interestingly, the IKS T'Ong can be used for either era. It was an old style Klingon ship from the Kirk era that was on such a long term mission that it returned in the Picard Era. Kinda proves how uneccessary this list is eh? Also Excelsior-class, Reliant-class, Oberth-class (USS Yosemite) and K't'inga-class (Kronos One) ships were created during Kirk's time, were still in operation during Picard's time and therefore can be played in both eras. Kor, Kang and Koloth appear in both eras as well, and K'Temoc was in stasis so could be in either really.

** This ship appears to have been made up for the game. However it is the same class of ship that appeared in an episode of Enterprise, which means it possibly shouldn't even be used in Kirk Era games let alone Picard-Era. Although the Klingons probably don't come up with new models of ships as quickly as most races, so I think it's passable. The IKS Somraw is the same class.
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Troy Westblade
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Re: The Definitive thread for sorting through the time periods
In summary- it is definitely possible to do a Picard era only game. Just take out the few ships and decks that are kirk specific.

Trying to do a Kirk era only game would be a lot trickier. First would need to make a second deck for both by combining the cards from the Unusuable decks into Kirk only cards. Same for the Klingons, although there are a lot more options with them since a number of Klingon characters lived long enough to appear in both eras. And even then it would need to be a small point game.
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Michael Gardner
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I was thinking of something along the same lines. Good work, seems reasonable.
 
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WakandaMan wrote:
Trying to do a Kirk era only game would be a lot trickier. First would need to make a second deck for both by combining the cards from the Unusuable decks into Kirk only cards. Same for the Klingons, although there are a lot more options with them since a number of Klingon characters lived long enough to appear in both eras. And even then it would need to be a small point game.


Thats a pity, as this is my favorite era by far ...
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Dumb question, since I haven't made it all the way through the rules yet -- couldn't you pull some of the cards inappropriate for the era out of the otherwise unusable decks? Granted, you wouldn't be able to play a huge game with a lot of construction points any longer.

-Dave
 
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etherton wrote:
Dumb question, since I haven't made it all the way through the rules yet -- couldn't you pull some of the cards inappropriate for the era out of the otherwise unusable decks? Granted, you wouldn't be able to play a huge game with a lot of construction points any longer.

-Dave


That's kind of what I was thinking - but I'm not fully versed in how the game decks interact with the base game...

EDIT: And worth pointing out - the Excelsior would certainly be workable in the TNG era. While I'm unsure when, exactly, that *particular* ship was retired...ships of that class fought well into the end of the DS9 era, so...about as far out as it goes.
 
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XanderF wrote:
etherton wrote:
Dumb question, since I haven't made it all the way through the rules yet -- couldn't you pull some of the cards inappropriate for the era out of the otherwise unusable decks? Granted, you wouldn't be able to play a huge game with a lot of construction points any longer.

-Dave


That's kind of what I was thinking - but I'm not fully versed in how the game decks interact with the base game...

EDIT: And worth pointing out - the Excelsior would certainly be workable in the TNG era. While I'm unsure when, exactly, that *particular* ship was retired...ships of that class fought well into the end of the DS9 era, so...about as far out as it goes.


Which kinda proves it's not really an issue, thematically. Birds of prey and excelisor classes are pretty much thoughtout the era. People keep comparing the Ent A serving with the Defiant to wooden ships with battleships from our past, but that's not really accurate. Modern ships refit and serve a long time, the real life Enterprise has served 50 years and is still a badass ship. It's not unreasonable to imagine starships in the far flung future serving together. In the last episode of DS9, excelisor class ships making up a huge portion of the Feds fleet fire the final battle of the Dominion War.

W
 
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With regard to the crews, most races are long lived. Heck the old Klingon captains from TOS are in several episodes of DS9. KIRKs human crew members would be too old to serve in the late eras, but can easily be hand waved with a time travel motif. I would say close to a quarter of all episodes of Star Trek involved time travel.
 
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Kirk Agathon wrote:
With regard to the crews, most races are long lived. Heck the old Klingon captains from TOS are in several episodes of DS9. KIRKs human crew members would be too old to serve in the late eras, but can easily be hand waved with a time travel motif. I would say close to a quarter of all episodes of Star Trek involved time travel.


I think I'll just say that in my 'board game reality' Kirk and his crew went on a long term voyage where they were placed in stasis for a large part of the journey.

I just read a comment by the Game Designer in his blog entry on this game that it scales perfectly at a range of point levels. So you could just each choose a single ship of equal point values and one deck each for a quick game if you like. So that means that you could conceivably play a Kirk-pure game at a low point value with the handful of ships that are available.

Sounds great!

Now I kinda want to create a chronological scenario, where you get new ships in approx chronological order until you work your way through from Kirk to Picard, to DS9 and finally Voyager.

I'm still miffed that they didn't include Captain Sisko though!
 
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Where the White Wome..... I mean Romulans at?
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bkdlots wrote:
Where the White Wome..... I mean Romulans at?


The first Expansion for certain. :)
 
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etherton wrote:
Dumb question, since I haven't made it all the way through the rules yet -- couldn't you pull some of the cards inappropriate for the era out of the otherwise unusable decks? Granted, you wouldn't be able to play a huge game with a lot of construction points any longer.

-Dave


I believe so, but I think you'd just need to make sure that the new deck stays 'balanced' with an appropriate number of each kind of card.

I'm thinking when I get it I might make my own decks- A true Kirk deck that includes Sulu and Scotty, a true Picard Deck and a Voyager deck (doesn't look like a DS9 deck is possible unfortunately). Each of those decks will probably be equivalent to 2 standard decks, and I'll just need to keep the proportions of the other kinds of cards equivalent to the crew.

I'll probably have to do the same for the Klingons as well. Maybe I'll make an 'evil' Klingon deck, a 'good' Klingon deck and an old school Klingon deck (kirk-era klingons only). Should be fun. :)
 
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XanderF wrote:

EDIT: And worth pointing out - the Excelsior would certainly be workable in the TNG era. While I'm unsure when, exactly, that *particular* ship was retired...ships of that class fought well into the end of the DS9 era, so...about as far out as it goes.


Thanks! I've edited that into the original post now. So that makes it really easy to set up a Picard era game. Just remove a handful of ships (even most of the Klingon ships can probably still be used in Picard-era due to their slower scientific progression) and a few decks.
 
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I would bet they add more to all eras and new eras in the expansions.
 
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WakandaMan wrote:
I'm still miffed that they didn't include Captain Sisko though!


Sisko will need an entire expansion to fit in the appropriate amount of awesome.
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As for the USS Excelsior, the USS Reliant should be moved to the Picard era. The Miranda-class starship was seen serving in many TNG, DS9 and a VOY episode (for example, the USS Saratoga, Sisko's ship that was destroyed by the Borg at Wolf 359 in the first episode of DS9, was a Miranda-class starship. Many were seen even as late as taking part in the Dominion Wars, even).
 
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Fecktor wrote:
As for the USS Excelsior, the USS Reliant should be moved to the Picard era. The Miranda-class starship was seen serving in many TNG, DS9 and a VOY episode (for example, the USS Saratoga, Sisko's ship that was destroyed by the Borg at Wolf 359 in the first episode of DS9, was a Miranda-class starship. Many were seen even as late as taking part in the Dominion Wars, even).


Thanks! I just checked the Klingon ships to see if any were in the same boat and Klothos One is as well. So You only need to remove the Enterprise-A, four of the Klingon ships and 3 decks to play a 'modern pure' game. Easy peasy. The Klingons would have 3 less points worth of ships in their point pool, but I doubt that would be significat unless playing a very high point game.
 
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WakandaMan wrote:
Fecktor wrote:
As for the USS Excelsior, the USS Reliant should be moved to the Picard era. The Miranda-class starship was seen serving in many TNG, DS9 and a VOY episode (for example, the USS Saratoga, Sisko's ship that was destroyed by the Borg at Wolf 359 in the first episode of DS9, was a Miranda-class starship. Many were seen even as late as taking part in the Dominion Wars, even).


Thanks! I just checked the Klingon ships to see if any were in the same boat and Klothos One is as well. So You only need to remove the Enterprise-A, four of the Klingon ships and 3 decks to play a 'modern pure' game. Easy peasy. The Klingons would have 3 less points worth of ships in their point pool, but I doubt that would be significat unless playing a very high point game.


Which brings up an interesting point (at least to me), what happened to all the Constitution class ships? Every other Federation ship serves all the way into the Dominion War, but Constitution class ships, the very best ships in the fleet, worthy of being flagships, are never seen again after Star Trek 6. Weird.
 
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Kirk Agathon wrote:
WakandaMan wrote:
Fecktor wrote:
As for the USS Excelsior, the USS Reliant should be moved to the Picard era. The Miranda-class starship was seen serving in many TNG, DS9 and a VOY episode (for example, the USS Saratoga, Sisko's ship that was destroyed by the Borg at Wolf 359 in the first episode of DS9, was a Miranda-class starship. Many were seen even as late as taking part in the Dominion Wars, even).


Thanks! I just checked the Klingon ships to see if any were in the same boat and Klothos One is as well. So You only need to remove the Enterprise-A, four of the Klingon ships and 3 decks to play a 'modern pure' game. Easy peasy. The Klingons would have 3 less points worth of ships in their point pool, but I doubt that would be significat unless playing a very high point game.


Which brings up an interesting point (at least to me), what happened to all the Constitution class ships? Every other Federation ship serves all the way into the Dominion War, but Constitution class ships, the very best ships in the fleet, worthy of being flagships, are never seen again after Star Trek 6. Weird.

Constitution class ships were some 40 to 60 years old by the end of STVI, depending on which chronology you subscribe to, and had already had to be refitted to keep up with the newer classes. Miranda class ships (Reliant was one) were maybe 10 years old by then if that. The Excelsior class was brand new and only just reaching the operational fleet. So while it seems that the latter two classes were still in use some 80-90 years later, the Constitution class ships would have been 150 years old.

(Of course the real reason is that they wanted a clean break from the original series and figured new classes of ships would be the norm, but for budgetry reasons using the existing movie standard models of Reliant and Excelsior made sense whereas the Enterprise model was seen as pushing credibility just a bit too far.)
 
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Fecktor wrote:
As for the USS Excelsior, the USS Reliant should be moved to the Picard era. The Miranda-class starship was seen serving in many TNG, DS9 and a VOY episode (for example, the USS Saratoga, Sisko's ship that was destroyed by the Borg at Wolf 359 in the first episode of DS9, was a Miranda-class starship. Many were seen even as late as taking part in the Dominion Wars, even).


You kinda run into the same problem as with the Enterprise-A, though. While some Miranda-refit ships served into the DS9 era, the actual Miranda class did not. The most common refit - including Sisko's Saratoga - omitted the rollbar, among other things we could assume...for example, the bridges were radically different, etc. Indeed, that's true of many of the Klingon ships, as well - visually, they are certainly similar from TOS through DS9. But especially once weapons start flying in DS9, it's immediately obvious some kind of MAJOR refits happened, as they are clearly not firing the same weapons they used to.

And, in any case, the USS Reliant, herself, was obviously destroyed during the events of the second movie. Ditto the Enterprise-A...banged up and decommissioned after the events of the sixth movie.

So we know those two ships, specifically, cannot be used in a TNG timeline game.

Kirk Agathon wrote:
Which kinda proves it's not really an issue, thematically. Birds of prey and excelisor classes are pretty much thoughtout the era. People keep comparing the Ent A serving with the Defiant to wooden ships with battleships from our past, but that's not really accurate. Modern ships refit and serve a long time, the real life Enterprise has served 50 years and is still a badass ship. It's not unreasonable to imagine starships in the far flung future serving together. In the last episode of DS9, excelisor class ships making up a huge portion of the Feds fleet fire the final battle of the Dominion War.


Oh, I definitely think the hull types were a pretty minor part of the complaint. The specific *ships*, though - per above point - definitely a valid issue, though. Several of them we *know* were destroyed or decommissioned.

More of an anachronism problem is the decks and characters in play - and that's what this thread seems to be addressing very well, and I'm eager to follow!
 
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Stile86 wrote:
Kirk Agathon wrote:
WakandaMan wrote:
Fecktor wrote:
As for the USS Excelsior, the USS Reliant should be moved to the Picard era. The Miranda-class starship was seen serving in many TNG, DS9 and a VOY episode (for example, the USS Saratoga, Sisko's ship that was destroyed by the Borg at Wolf 359 in the first episode of DS9, was a Miranda-class starship. Many were seen even as late as taking part in the Dominion Wars, even).


Thanks! I just checked the Klingon ships to see if any were in the same boat and Klothos One is as well. So You only need to remove the Enterprise-A, four of the Klingon ships and 3 decks to play a 'modern pure' game. Easy peasy. The Klingons would have 3 less points worth of ships in their point pool, but I doubt that would be significat unless playing a very high point game.


Which brings up an interesting point (at least to me), what happened to all the Constitution class ships? Every other Federation ship serves all the way into the Dominion War, but Constitution class ships, the very best ships in the fleet, worthy of being flagships, are never seen again after Star Trek 6. Weird.

Constitution class ships were some 40 to 60 years old by the end of STVI, depending on which chronology you subscribe to, and had already had to be refitted to keep up with the newer classes. Miranda class ships (Reliant was one) were maybe 10 years old by then if that. The Excelsior class was brand new and only just reaching the operational fleet. So while it seems that the latter two classes were still in use some 80-90 years later, the Constitution class ships would have been 150 years old.

(Of course the real reason is that they wanted a clean break from the original series and figured new classes of ships would be the norm, but for budgetry reasons using the existing movie standard models of Reliant and Excelsior made sense whereas the Enterprise model was seen as pushing credibility just a bit too far.)


The refitted Enterprise is far superior to a Miranda class ship only ten years old. It stands to reason it would still be reasonably efficientin comparison no matter how much time had passed. I get what your saying, but during the Dominion War most of the fleet is made up of Excelsior class and Miranda class ships. Even assuming these ships have been refitted, a refitted Constitution class ship should still be on par with them (or close). They are all ancient compared to Galaxy, Defiant, and Sovereign class ships, but the other two classes are still prominent and holding their own against the Dominion. Seems to me that the most famous ship class of the Federation would be still be around. Plus it would have looked cool!
 
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XanderF wrote:
And, in any case, the USS Reliant, herself, was obviously destroyed during the events of the second movie. Ditto the Enterprise-A...banged up and decommissioned after the events of the sixth movie.

So we know those two ships, specifically, cannot be used in a TNG timeline game.


Oh absolutely, so to be perfectly 'correct' you shouldn't really use the Reliant or even the Excelsior in Picard-era games, but since ships of the same class were used then, and also given the Federation's penchant for using the same names for their ships over and over (in some cases even for ships of the same class, as happened with the Defiant) I don't think many people will be bothered about using them in both eras.

Quote:
More of an anachronism problem is the decks and characters in play - and that's what this thread seems to be addressing very well, and I'm eager to follow!


Very true. I've only really looked at the decks in terms of characters so far as that is all the info I have, but I wonder if other cards in the decks will be 'era specific' as well. I doubt they will though.
 
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I would understand if you were talking about the actual ships being 150 years old. The Enterprise A , for example, would obviously be too old to fight in the Dominion War. But so would the Reliant, or the Enterprise B. The ship designs for the Miranda and Excelsior class ships, however, were still a viable option when building new ships for the Dominion War effort. It stands to reason then, IMO, that the Constitution class refit would still be viable as well.

I would agree with your "real life" reason, though. They wanted to go in a new direction. I just find it odd that they wouldn't scrap all the old ship designs, especially by the time of DS9. Of course, I'm sure money had something to do with that.
 
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XanderF wrote:
Fecktor wrote:
As for the USS Excelsior, the USS Reliant should be moved to the Picard era. The Miranda-class starship was seen serving in many TNG, DS9 and a VOY episode (for example, the USS Saratoga, Sisko's ship that was destroyed by the Borg at Wolf 359 in the first episode of DS9, was a Miranda-class starship. Many were seen even as late as taking part in the Dominion Wars, even).


You kinda run into the same problem as with the Enterprise-A, though. While some Miranda-refit ships served into the DS9 era, the actual Miranda class did not. The most common refit - including Sisko's Saratoga - omitted the rollbar, among other things we could assume...for example, the bridges were radically different, etc. Indeed, that's true of many of the Klingon ships, as well - visually, they are certainly similar from TOS through DS9. But especially once weapons start flying in DS9, it's immediately obvious some kind of MAJOR refits happened, as they are clearly not firing the same weapons they used to.

And, in any case, the USS Reliant, herself, was obviously destroyed during the events of the second movie. Ditto the Enterprise-A...banged up and decommissioned after the events of the sixth movie.

So we know those two ships, specifically, cannot be used in a TNG timeline game.

Kirk Agathon wrote:
Which kinda proves it's not really an issue, thematically. Birds of prey and excelisor classes are pretty much thoughtout the era. People keep comparing the Ent A serving with the Defiant to wooden ships with battleships from our past, but that's not really accurate. Modern ships refit and serve a long time, the real life Enterprise has served 50 years and is still a badass ship. It's not unreasonable to imagine starships in the far flung future serving together. In the last episode of DS9, excelisor class ships making up a huge portion of the Feds fleet fire the final battle of the Dominion War.


Oh, I definitely think the hull types were a pretty minor part of the complaint. The specific *ships*, though - per above point - definitely a valid issue, though. Several of them we *know* were destroyed or decommissioned.

More of an anachronism problem is the decks and characters in play - and that's what this thread seems to be addressing very well, and I'm eager to follow!


According to the designer's blog on BGG, as long as the ship point costs and cards counts are the same, the game's engine would hold up. Therefor, using the OP's original post as a starting point, I think it would be pretty easy to build era specific decks and divide possible ship options into "early" era and "late" era. I think the Kirk era definitely has a smaller "pool" of options and would amount to a quicker game time.
 
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Kirk Agathon wrote:
Which brings up an interesting point (at least to me), what happened to all the Constitution class ships? Every other Federation ship serves all the way into the Dominion War, but Constitution class ships, the very best ships in the fleet, worthy of being flagships, are never seen again after Star Trek 6. Weird.


Significant numbers of them must have been destroyed or decommissioned as the names were reused. I don't believe that Star Fleet practised having two ships simultaneously in commission at the same time with the same name, time travel incidents aside.


Constitution class 24th C. Class
-------------------------- --------- -------------
NCC-1764 USS Defiant NX-74205 Defiant
NCC-1703 USS Hood NCC-42296 Excelsior
NCC-1664 USS Excalibur NCC-26517 Ambassador
NCC-1895 USS Endeavour NCC-71805 Nebula
or NCC-1718
NCC-1709 USS Lexington ??? Nebula
NCC-1631 USS Intrepid NCC-38907 Excelsior
and later NCC-74600 Intrepid
NCC-1657 USS Potemkin NCC-18253 Excelsior
NCC-1717 USS Yorktown NCC-61137 Zodiac
NCC-1672 USS Exeter NCC-26531 Ambassador
NCC-1017 USS Constellation NCC-1974 Constellation
NCC-1700 USS Constitution ??? Galaxy


The few above are all I felt like listing on but they are most of those mentioned in or inferred directly from TOS (or one from ST4, the Yorktown, which may have been recomissioned as NCC-1701-A USS Enterprise following ST4, or something like that, it's confusing). They reappear or are mentioned in TNG, DSN or VOY except for the new Constitution which is from the Pocket Books series. Most of the registries are canonical. The Constellation class is actually from the late C.23 but was in service in much or most of C.24.
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