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Subject: Bad habit -- breaks the game? rss

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S C
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I am a fan of deck building game, I play Dominion, Ascension, Rune Age etc, but none of those game come even close to how broken this game is..

I just had my first game of Tanto Cuore yesterday, after a few rounds and my deck started becoming the most potential out of all 3 players.. this friend whome we all know to be idiotic self destructive in a board game when provoked, he basically uses every resource and employment to load 4-5 bad habit onto me without buying anything for himself -- every single turn, just so he can drag me down to the dirt with him. You can guess it, at the end the 3rd player remained untouched wins the game.

Are we playing the game wrong (rulewise) or is it just lame?
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Justin
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nekochen wrote:
I am a fan of deck building game, I play Dominion, Ascension, Rune Age etc, but none of those game come even close to how broken this game is..

I just had my first game of Tanto Cuore yesterday, after a few rounds and my deck started becoming the most potential out of all 3 players.. this friend whome we all know to be idiotic self destructive in a board game when provoked, he basically uses every resource and employment to load 4-5 bad habit onto me without buying anything for himself -- every single turn, just so he can drag me down to the dirt with him. You can guess it, at the end the 3rd player remained untouched wins the game.

Are we playing the game wrong (rulewise) or is it just lame?

I haven't played this game, and I don't know the rules. This sounds like a person problem, not a game problem. Play with people that are trying to compete!
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Robert Virata
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nekochen wrote:
I am a fan of deck building game, I play Dominion, Ascension, Rune Age etc, but none of those game come even close to how broken this game is..

I just had my first game of Tanto Cuore yesterday, after a few rounds and my deck started becoming the most potential out of all 3 players.. this friend whome we all know to be idiotic self destructive in a board game when provoked, he basically uses every resource and employment to load 4-5 bad habit onto me without buying anything for himself -- every single turn, just so he can drag me down to the dirt with him. You can guess it, at the end the 3rd player remained untouched wins the game.

Are we playing the game wrong (rulewise) or is it just lame?



I guess the question becomes, how many games with more than 2 players would break if one of the players decides not to try to win?
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S C
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I agree, it's usually the person's problem but when a game is designed so it can be exploited like this would mean it's either played wrong (rulewise) or it's just plainly broken. In either case, I just like to know if the game is played as intended.
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Julian Clarke
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nekochen wrote:
..., he basically uses every resource and employment to load 4-5 bad habit onto me without buying anything for himself -- every single turn, just so he can drag me down to the dirt with him. You can guess it, at the end the 3rd player remained untouched wins the game.


I am not sure that anyone could win any game when they are being single-mindedly targeted by another player throughout. Makes the process a bit pointless. Don't believe it's the game; almost any game would suffer from this kind of disposition in one of the players.
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rolvtd wrote:

I guess the question becomes, how many games with more than 2 players would break if one of the players decides not to try to win?


Right, but if you limit it down to (specifically a genre) deck-building game, there isn't many in that regard.

You cant go off and try to screw yourself and someone else over in Dominion or Ascension. You can technically "try" to repeatedly attack a single player every turn in RuneAge, but that it's not without a benefit to either player since the game is built to win by elimination, and you are always able to defend yourself as well.

*edit*

I gather from all the replies that this game is played as intended, bad habits are designed to work like so.

Anyways, that answered my question, thanks.

*/edit*
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Bobby Warren
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nekochen wrote:
...this friend whome we all know to be idiotic self destructive in a board game when provoked, he basically uses every resource and employment to load 4-5 bad habit onto me without buying anything for himself -- every single turn, just so he can drag me down to the dirt with him. You can guess it, at the end the 3rd player remained untouched wins the game.

Are we playing the game wrong (rulewise) or is it just lame?

What's lame is playing games with a moron like your friend who doesn't play to win, bu plays to spite others. Friend, or not, I would not play games with him.
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Diz Hooper
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It's a people problem, not a game problem.
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Robert Virata
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nekochen wrote:
rolvtd wrote:

I guess the question becomes, how many games with more than 2 players would break if one of the players decides not to try to win?


Right, but if you limit it down to (specifically a genre) deck-building game, there isn't many in that regard.

You cant go off and try to screw yourself and someone else over in Dominion or Ascension. You can technically "try" to repeatedly attack a single player every turn in RuneAge, but that it's not without a benefit to either player since the game is built to win by elimination, and you are always able to defend yourself as well.

*edit*

I gather from all the replies that this game is played as intended, bad habits are designed to work like so.

Anyways, that answered my question, thanks.

*/edit*


You are welcome. I would also point you towards 2 ways to rectify the problem if it continues and you still wish to play:

Claire Saint-Juste "White maid"
General maid
Cost 3
+1 serving
You may remove one event card from your house to the pool.
As a reaction, when an event card is place in your house: You may reveal this card. If you do, return the event card to the pool.


I would ALWAYS include Claire in your games with your friend. She removes events/prevents events AND gives you +1 serving, so its like playing a free card. Failing that, you can move yourself towards the private maid, Sora Nakachi, that moves event cards of your choice and calmly move them back towards HIS private area:

Sora Nakachi "private maid"
Private maid
Cost 7
2 VP
At the start of your turn: You may choose one event card and place it onto a maid in another house.



In closing, I believe the base set of Dominion lacks interaction (personal opinion of course) but in turn it lacks the chance to "screw your neighbor". I appreciated the ability of Tanto Cuore to encourage interaction via the event cards but that does open it up to players that play like you suggest. As long as there are counters, as I have pointed out above, it adds to gameplay imho.

Also, FYI, the upcoming expansions also start to lock down the effects of the event cards, and those sets do not even have event cards themselves, which I found disappointing. Those sets may be more a style to play with your friend.





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Niti Suibvises
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There is some rule that you may miss it ,If you have no private maid or chambermaid in your house, other player cannot send a bad habit to you.

In a few rounds that you said I don't sure you have any private maid or chambermaid in your house,if NO they cannot send a bad habit to you.

I found this problem in some game too,I try to send bad habit to other people too if I can(to reduce my minus score) ,play the game best that I can do and end the game as fast as possible.
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Kelly Overholser
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Really, any game with targeted attacks will have this "problem" if there's an uncooperative player. It's incredibly difficult to make a game with hostile player interaction and still avoid it. Mostly, it's an issue with the player himself, not the game, and I suggest not abandoning Tanto because of one bad player.

Still, you might want to look at the expansions. Both of them are standalone games, and neither involve direct attacks like the base game. As far as I know, neither of them have been released in English yet, but they do plan on publishing them soon (possibly having both out by next year's GenCon).
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Matt Martin
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One way of mitigting the issue would be to simply remove Bad Habits, Illness, the Twilight sisters, Nina Wilder, and Claire (as she would be rendered useless) from the game. However, this reduces the pool of available general maids to 14, so the layout would remain somewhat constant from game to game.
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nekochen wrote:

Are we playing the game wrong (rulewise) or is {SNIP} HE {SNIP} just lame?


Both.

1) You're missing the defensive maids and the fact that if you don't chambermaid anyone you can't be targeted (a necessary defensive tactic when playing with some players).

2) Your friend is playing lamely. No game that has direct interaction can survive a player who will sacrifice their own self interest in favor of an all out attack. Many deckbuilders have little direct interaction so perhaps this friend of yours was not acquainted with just how un-fun this playstyle would be.

In my experience with aggressive players we teeter on the edge of mutually assured destruction so it's always a bit of a turning point in the game progression when somebody decides they need to bust out the bad habits. At that point it's a race to see who can do the most damage without losing their own lead before the habits are all soaked up.

Great fun!
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David Sheppard
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I would say my opinion is something is broken as having a deck capable of buying 4-5 bad habits a turn means he's built a damn fine deck (capable of purchasing Murianes every turn) just ot be able to do this. More often than not, events are purchased as a "I cannot do better to my deck and only so much money... so now it's time to crew with you."

While it's true that Bad Habits are one of those mechanics that CAN be exploited in a game, (what are you doing playing without Claire?!?) the cost to benefit ratio is low enough you can label them an idiot.
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Michael Kefauver
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Another voice chiming in that any game can be damaged to a varying degree by one jerk doing everything they can to screw you. Heck, even in Dominion they can try to predict your strategy and foil it by buying cards you need as quickly as possible or trying to rush the end of the game without thinking about increasing their own point total. Even in Thunderstone they can buy out needed card piles to make a useless deck that has almost every light item in the game in it.
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Steven Albano
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Also, I just want to note that you need to be able to get 4-5 employs too in order to get that many bad habits.
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Tim P.
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I haven't had a chance to play the game yet, but I wonder, are Bad Habit broken (or nigh-broken) in 2P?
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Anthony Martins
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tim_p wrote:
I haven't had a chance to play the game yet, but I wonder, are Bad Habit broken (or nigh-broken) in 2P?


I think they're best in 2P. This is mostly because you know, for sure, you are picking on whoever is in 1st, or if you're in 1st, who is in 2nd.

I don't love pick-on-the-leader mechanics when you're not sure who the leader is

But, that being said, these will be bought fast in 2P games.
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Tim P.
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I don't think that's inherently bad game design. But since Tanto Cuore's unique mechanic as a DBG is chambering (in the base set, at least), it seems silly to have a dominant strategy which is best avoided by completely ignoring the game's most unique part.
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