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Subject: When to credit VPs rss

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John Godfrey
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Reading the rules and examples, I'm a little unclear about when to update the round and square VP counters. But it seems to me I can't go wrong by always updating them as soon as something happens that affects the VP total.

So for example, the moment the German takes or loses a city (during Turns 1-11 when the German has the Initiative), move the square VP counter. The moment a Soviet unit surrenders or an event affects VPs(e.g., El Alamein or a VP-related card event), up to the 6 VP limit for surrender/event VPs, move both the round counter and the square counter. Always, the round counter value plus the number of controlled cities must equal the square counter value.

There is a mention in the rules of placing control markers on cities to remind you to update the VP counters later, but I can't think of any reason not to update them immediately, even though Sudden Death Victory isn't calculated until the Victory Phase. Am I missing something?

Thanks, love the game!
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Carl Paradis
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No you are not missing anything. It makes good sense to update as you go if you prefer.

When I play I always do it later, but I have a special way of using the contol counters. And you don't want to know!
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Jim O'Neill (Established 1949)
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licinius wrote:
...but I have a special way of using the contol counters. And you don't want to know!

Kinky bugger!

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Adam Donahue
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A poster above says that "always the VP is the total of the event VP and the number of controlled cities" (I paraphrase). Is that the case? _Always_ or only with a single turn?

If always, then the sole purpose of the event VP marker is to make sure you don't exceed this (per-game) limit, or, if Turn-based, so that you don't exceed it per turn (in which case the total event VPs+controlled cities == VPs is only for the given turn, not the full game).

I'm glad this question was asked because I too was confused about exactly when the VP marker should be moved.
 
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Carl Paradis
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adamdonahue wrote:
A poster above says that "always the VP is the total of the event VP and the number of controlled cities" (I paraphrase). Is that the case? _Always_ or only with a single turn?

If always, then the sole purpose of the event VP marker is to make sure you don't exceed this (per-game) limit, or, if Turn-based, so that you don't exceed it per turn (in which case the total event VPs+controlled cities == VPs is only for the given turn, not the full game).

I'm glad this question was asked because I too was confused about exactly when the VP marker should be moved.


Read the 12.7 and 12.8 sections again and get back to me. I'm not sure I understand your question.

My English is not that perfect and I want to make sure I'm not confusing you more! cry

or perhaps a native-english speaker could help here?
 
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Kevin Davidson

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licinius wrote:
adamdonahue wrote:
A poster above says that "always the VP is the total of the event VP and the number of controlled cities" (I paraphrase). Is that the case? _Always_ or only with a single turn?

If always, then the sole purpose of the event VP marker is to make sure you don't exceed this (per-game) limit, or, if Turn-based, so that you don't exceed it per turn (in which case the total event VPs+controlled cities == VPs is only for the given turn, not the full game).

I'm glad this question was asked because I too was confused about exactly when the VP marker should be moved.


Read the 12.7 and 12.8 sections again and get back to me. I'm not sure I understand your question.

My English is not that perfect and I want to make sure I'm not confusing you more! cry

or perhaps a native-english speaker could help here?


Hello Adam,

I will let Carl correct me if I am wrong. At the start of turn 1 up to turn 11 the Germans have the initiative. The square VP marker always represents the total number of cities (including Objective cities) the Germans have (at the beginning of the game it starts at 12 because they have that many to start with). The Round VP marker is used as a rolling way from turn to turn to be added to the German total of cities, but it can never be higher than 6. Turn 1 you get one unit to surrender, move the round VP marker to 1. Turn 2 you get another unit to surrender but a card is played that reduces it by 1, so round VP marker stays at one. At the beginning of turn 3 if the Germans had 16 cities they would add one to that to make the square marker 17. During turn 3 an event happens (midway) which would reduce the round marker to zero, and if nothing else happened other than the Germans took another city, then at the beginning of Turn 4 the square marker would be 17 plus the round marker of zero for 17.

At the beginning of Turn 12 you check to see if the Germans win by counting the cities and where the Round VP marker is currently and if they don't, place the High Tide marker on the current German score, then reset Round VP marker to zero, Flip the square VP marker to soviet side and then count the soviet controlled cities and place the square VP marker on the new score. The Round VP marker will now be used in a rolling way like before, never higher than 6.

I believe that is the way it's supposed to work, and by my example perhaps Carl will understand the question you were asking better.

Cheers
Kevin

Edited my above response from turn 11 to 12. I was in error saying turn 11 when mentioning initiative change
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Carl Paradis
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Thnaks Kevin!

You have explained it perfectly.
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Norman Smith
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Thanks, that has helped firm things up in my mind.
 
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Carl Paradis
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normsmith wrote:
Thanks, that has helped firm things up in my mind.


Do not forget that the round VP marker is only a game reminder of "Non-Map" Victory Points.

You could dispense of it and take a note on a sheet of paper, or not if you ahve a good memory.
 
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Conor Hickey
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So is it correct to say that:

A) the round VP marker is adjusted as necessary throughout the game, and does not reset to 0 at the end of each turn, or do you zero it after adding/subtracting the relevant points at the start of a turn?

B) does +/- 1 VP for each card played as a VP affecting Event mean that each card a side plays for it's event gives them 1 event VP, or must the card played mention VPs itself to qualify for this? i.e. am I right in thinking that this rule is meant to encourage you to save some cards for their events rather than spending all on replacements, counterblows etc?
 
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Kevin Davidson

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TwoShedsJackson wrote:
So is it correct to say that:

A) the round VP marker is adjusted as necessary throughout the game, and does not reset to 0 at the end of each turn, or do you zero it after adding/subtracting the relevant points at the start of a turn?

B) does +/- 1 VP for each card played as a VP affecting Event mean that each card a side plays for it's event gives them 1 event VP, or must the card played mention VPs itself to qualify for this? i.e. am I right in thinking that this rule is meant to encourage you to save some cards for their events rather than spending all on replacements, counterblows etc?


Answer to A: You never reset it to zero until Turn 12 when iniative switches to Russian player. You keep track of it though every turn adding and subtracting to it until this happens.

Answer to B: The event on the Card must say will give or take a VP. Playing additional cards do not enhance this.

Don't confuse this with Events on the Turn track, they simply take away a VP from the Germans when they have the iniative, and add one VP when the Russians gain the iniative (talking about Pearl Harbor, Midway in red on turn track), cards don't influence this.

Edited my above response from turn 11 to 12. I was in error saying turn 11 when mentioning initiative change
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Steve E.
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Does the round VP marker move when an OOS unit surrenders?
 
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Carl Paradis
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1copse wrote:
Does the round VP marker move when an OOS unit surrenders?


Yes.

The round marker is used as a reminder to record "Non-map" VPs. If fact you can play without it and just keep a written record of those non-map VPs (Surrendered units, VPs red events on the turn track (ex: Midway), and VP events from cards).

But I find it much better to use the round marker for that.
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Fabrice Dubois
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Thank you guys to have clarified this.

But i still have one question : given the fact that the round VP marker is summed every turn with controlled hexes AND not reset until turn 12, this means that a surrendered Soviet unit or a German played card for VP will count 11 times for the German, right ? I understand that there is a limit of 6VP max and that the Soviet will react and do everything possible to bring down the round marker (by playing VP event, making surrender German units or retaking cities....) but..... WOW !
 
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Carl Paradis
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fdubois wrote:
Thank you guys to have clarified this.

But i still have one question : given the fact that the round VP marker is summed every turn with controlled hexes AND not reset until turn 12, this means that a surrendered Soviet unit or a German played card for VP will count 11 times for the German, right ? I understand that there is a limit of 6VP max and that the Soviet will react and do everything possible to bring down the round marker (by playing VP event, making surrender German units or retaking cities....) but..... WOW !


No. You did not get it correctly. Let's try in in a more "Civilized" language.

Le marqueur rond ne sert que "d'aide mémoire" pour les points de victoire qui ne sont pas des objectifs sur la carte, Autrement il sont difficiles a garder en note sans en oublier.

Bref le marqueur carré de points de victoire indique les points de victoire totaux (villes, unités détruites. évenements, etc..). En théorie tu pourrais n'utiliser que ce dit marqueur carré, et ne pas utiliser le rond, et peut-etre juste avoir un morceau de papier avec dessus les points de victoire qui ne sont pas des villes afin de ne pas les oublier dans le total.

Il n'y a donc aucun point de victoire qui est ajouté plus d'une fois chaque tour! Cela serait un peu fou...

Évidemment au tour 12 on remet aussi le tout a Zéro car l'initiative change.

C'est plus clair?

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Fabrice Dubois
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Thank you Carl but what confused me is this :

zhodanicommando wrote:

...
Turn 1 you get one unit to surrender, move the round VP marker to 1. Turn 2 you get another unit to surrender but a card is played that reduces it by 1, so round VP marker stays at one.
...

plus the fact that you agreed with Kevin

plus this rule (12.8 page 16) :
Quote:
The round VP marker is used to reflect the current net score of VP-affecting Events and the loss of Surrendered units (12.7.4)

English is not my mother tongue but maybe i need eyeglasses
 
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Carl Paradis
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fdubois wrote:
English is not my mother tongue but maybe I need eyeglasses


Well I don't understand why those abopve-mentionned bits of text caused you confusion.

Now I think it's ME who is confused. cry

Anyway, as long as my last explanation cleared things out.
 
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Fabrice Dubois
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licinius wrote:
Well I don't understand why those abopve-mentionned bits of text caused you confusion.


In a more "Civilized" language :

Si le marqueur rond est sur la face correspondant à un camps, qu'il est déjà à 6 PV, ce camps ne marque pas de point supplémentaire en cas de reddition d'une nouvelle unité ennemie.

En d'autre terme, un camp ne peux jamais gagner plus de 6 PV pour des unités adverses ayant été obligées de se rendre.

C'est bien cela ?
 
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Carl Paradis
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fdubois wrote:
licinius wrote:
Well I don't understand why those abopve-mentionned bits of text caused you confusion.


In a more "Civilized" language :

Si le marqueur rond est sur la face correspondant à un camps, qu'il est déjà à 6 PV, ce camps ne marque pas de point supplémentaire en cas de reddition d'une nouvelle unité ennemie.

En d'autre terme, un camp ne peux jamais gagner plus de 6 PV pour des unités adverses ayant été obligées de se rendre.

C'est bien cela ?


Exact. Et n'oublie pas que le marqueur ront indique aussi les PV gagnés par les événements des cartes et ou du "turn track" ( ex.: Pearl Harbor, Stalin Orders Attack).
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Fabrice Dubois
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licinius wrote:
Exact. Et n'oublie pas que le marqueur ront indique aussi les PV gagnés par les événements des cartes et ou du "turn track" ( ex.: Pearl Harbor, Stalin Orders Attack).

Merci Carl. Désormais, c'est limpide.

Et effectivement, il en va de même pour les PV gagnés par événement (6 maximum potentiellement) et pour les PV du turn track (6 maximum potentiellement aussi).

Confirmes tu que "red-lettered Turn Event" (4.0.c) et "each Game Turn 'other theater' Event" (12.7.5) désignent la même chose ?
 
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Carl Paradis
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fdubois wrote:
Confirmes tu que "red-lettered Turn Event" (4.0.c) et "each Game Turn 'other theater' Event" (12.7.5) désignent la même chose ?


Exact!
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christian lecuyot
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hello, bonjour,

In both langages, dans les deux langues,

Sorry, but i still dont understand something. If the round marker is not reseted to zero each turn, it means that the same event, card or surrending unit VP will be earned each turn ? We will add to the control VP on the square marker the same victory point from the round marker on every turn, untill 11 times if this happens at the begining ! no ?? For instance, if i gain one VP at the first turn for a surrending unit, as the round marker is not reseted to zéro, the same point will be added from turn to turn on the square marker, no ? What did i miss ?


Désolé, mais il y a toujours quelque chose que je ne comprends pas. Si le marqueur rond n'est pas remis à zéro à chaque tour, cela veut bien dire qu'un même événement, carte ou reddition va compter à chaque tour ? En effet, on va rajouter aux zones de contrôle sur le marqueur carré les mêmes points du marqueur rond à chaque tour, jusqu'à onze fois si cela à lieu au début ! non ?? Exemple, si je gagne un point au premier tour pour la redition d'une unité, comme le marqueur rond le comptabilise et n'est pas remis à zéro, ce même point va être additionné de tour en tour sur le marqueur carré non ? C'est quoi que j'ai raté ??
 
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Carl Paradis
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LoganTT wrote:
hello, bonjour,

In both langages, dans les deux langues,

Sorry, but i still dont understand something. If the round marker is not reseted to zero each turn, it means that the same event, card or surrending unit VP will be earned each turn ? We will add to the control VP on the square marker the same victory point from the round marker on every turn, untill 11 times if this happens at the begining ! no ?? For instance, if i gain one VP at the first turn for a surrending unit, as the round marker is not reseted to zéro, the same point will be added from turn to turn on the square marker, no ? What did i miss ?


Désolé, mais il y a toujours quelque chose que je ne comprends pas. Si le marqueur rond n'est pas remis à zéro à chaque tour, cela veut bien dire qu'un même événement, carte ou reddition va compter à chaque tour ? En effet, on va rajouter aux zones de contrôle sur le marqueur carré les mêmes points du marqueur rond à chaque tour, jusqu'à onze fois si cela à lieu au début ! non ?? Exemple, si je gagne un point au premier tour pour la redition d'une unité, comme le marqueur rond le comptabilise et n'est pas remis à zéro, ce même point va être additionné de tour en tour sur le marqueur carré non ? C'est quoi que j'ai raté ??


Le marqueur rond n'est qu'un aide-mémoire pour les points de victoires qui ne sont pas des villes capturées sur la carte (ceux-la sont faciles à compter!). Donc les points de victoire des unités éliminés, ceux des évènements rouges (ex: El Alamain), ceut des cartes (ex: Stalins orders attack). Il n'est pas vraiment rajouté de tour en tour.

Tu peux facilement ne pas utiliser le dit marqueur rond, si tu as confiance en tes capacités de calcul, ou noter sur une feuille!

Bref,

Marqueur Carré = total de TOUS les points de victoire.
Maqueur rond = aide mémoire pour les points de victoire qui ne sont pas causés par la capture d'une ville (ou d'un puits de pétrole).
 
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Thomas Koba
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Is this correct, then:

1. The german player has 12 rounds to score his VP's. After that, he cannot score more VPs

2. Throughout ALL those 12 rounds he cannot score a total more than "Total City VPs" + "a maximum of 6 round marker VPs"

3. High Tide is kinda like: "This-is-how-far-the-german-got"
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Carl Paradis
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Siinji wrote:
Is this correct, then:

1. The german player has 12 rounds to score his VP's. After that, he cannot score more VPs

2. Throughout ALL those 12 rounds he cannot score a total more than "Total City VPs" + "a maximum of 6 round marker VPs"

3. High Tide is kinda like: "This-is-how-far-the-german-got"


Yes! Then It's the Soviet turn for the rst of the game.

BUT the German can still lower the Societ total (with VP awards that will be shown on the round marker). Like card events or Surrendered units.

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