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Subject: Aqueduct, Fortress, and Commodities rss

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Ben Ginat
Israel
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Aqueduct -
Way too powerful. Instead of choosing a resouce, you get a resource according to the number of the yellow die:
1 - wood
2 - Ore
3- Grain
4- Ship
5- Brick
6 - Nothing.

Fortress -
Way too weak.I offer one or more of the followling:
1. Mighty Knights has a strength of 4
2. Mighty Knights can be activated by any resources.
3. Mighty Knights can be activated several times in one turn.
4. You can't use the "Deserter" card on a player owning a Fortress, unless you own a Fortress yourself.
5. Keep using the "Largest Army" card - among the players who has Fortress, the one with the largest army's strength (for this purpuse counts both active and inactive knights) gets the card. Now, If you are the first to build the Fortress, you get the Largest Army!

Commodities -
Catan was allways about choices: Should I use my ore for a develepment card, or should I save it for a City?
Should I use my wheat for a develepment card, or should I save it for a Settelmant?
But that is gone when it comes to commodities, since there is only one thing you can do with them.
I offer to the following rule:
You may trade 1 coin for 1 ore
You may trade 1 cloth for 1 ship
You may trade 1 paper for 1 wood
Since this makes the Marchant Guild less affective, change it so you can
trade any 2 commodities to another commoditiy, or any 1 commoditiy to any 1 resources.

What do think about this changes?
 
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Brent Pollock
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I think I won't use them.
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Black Eagle wrote:
Aqueduct -
Way too powerful. Instead of choosing a resouce, you get a resource according to the number of the yellow die:
1 - wood
2 - Ore
3- Grain
4- Ship
5- Brick
6 - Nothing.


Not too powerful. I would always prefer to get a good roll than get one card.

Black Eagle wrote:

Fortress -
Way too weak.I offer one or more of the followling:
1. Mighty Knights has a strength of 4
2. Mighty Knights can be activated by any resources.
3. Mighty Knights can be activated several times in one turn.
4. You can't use the "Deserter" card on a player owning a Fortress, unless you own a Fortress yourself.
5. Keep using the "Largest Army" card - among the players who has Fortress, the one with the largest army's strength (for this purpuse counts both active and inactive knights) gets the card. Now, If you are the first to build the Fortress, you get the Largest Army!


Only weak if everyone has one. Otherwise, being able to field 2 knights with a total of 6 strength is awesome, and only 2 wheat to activate them.

Black Eagle wrote:

Commodities -
Catan was allways about choices: Should I use my ore for a develepment card, or should I save it for a City?
Should I use my wheat for a develepment card, or should I save it for a Settelmant?
But that is gone when it comes to commodities, since there is only one thing you can do with them.
I offer to the following rule:
You may trade 1 coin for 1 ore
You may trade 1 cloth for 1 ship
You may trade 1 paper for 1 wood
Since this makes the Marchant Guild less affective, change it so you can
trade any 2 commodities to another commoditiy, or any 1 commoditiy to any 1 resources.

What do think about this changes?


There is always two thinks you can do with commodities, upgrade and trade. People who cannot produce a commodity are often looking to trade for at least one to get a chance for a card. Therefore they usually offer a good trade rate. And once you have the merchant guild, then trade them 2 for 1. Great stuff.

I don't feel any changes need to be made.
 
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Ben Ginat
Israel
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willythesnitch wrote:

Not too powerful. I would always prefer to get a good roll than get one card.


I read the posts here about the Aqueduct, and this thing keep poping out.
Ofcousrs it's better to get a good roll than to get one card, but that's not the point.
The point is players have good rolls and bad rolls, while the player who has the Aqueduct has either a good roll or he can get any resources he wants (which is a big deal, even if having a good roll is better).

willythesnitch wrote:
Only weak if everyone has one. Otherwise, being able to field 2 knights with a total of 6 strength is awesome, and only 2 wheat to activate them.


In our game no one build it until he had "no choice" (3 coins and nothing to do with them). No one ever asked for a coin in a trade.
Yes, you can now pay one one wheat instead of 3, but that is about it.



willythesnitch wrote:


There is always two thinks you can do with commodities, upgrade and trade.


If you trade way something, it means you don't need it and have nothing to do with it. You allways have a choice to trade, but that's not a real choice.
 
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Black Eagle wrote:

If you trade way something, it means you don't need it and have nothing to do with it. You allways have a choice to trade, but that's not a real choice.


???

You've never traded away something you could use later for something you could really use now?

I think I see why you re trying to change the game.
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Black Eagle wrote:


Commodities -
Catan was allways about choices: Should I use my ore for a develepment card, or should I save it for a City?
Should I use my wheat for a develepment card, or should I save it for a Settelmant?
But that is gone when it comes to commodities, since there is only one thing you can do with them.
I offer to the following rule:
You may trade 1 coin for 1 ore
You may trade 1 cloth for 1 ship
You may trade 1 paper for 1 wood
Since this makes the Marchant Guild less affective, change it so you can
trade any 2 commodities to another commoditiy, or any 1 commoditiy to any 1 resources.

What do think about this changes?


With ore, 3 to go towards a city, or ore + sheep for a knight.

As for commodities, you can always trade them at a 2:1 port, or to other players. Problem with being able to trade one commodity for one of its respective resource is it may make commodities TOO powerful to have that level of flexibility.
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Ben Ginat
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willythesnitch wrote:
Black Eagle wrote:

If you trade way something, it means you don't need it and have nothing to do with it. You allways have a choice to trade, but that's not a real choice.


???

You've never traded away something you could use later for something you could really use now?

I think I see why you re trying to change the game.


But you can't use it later for anything but city upgrade

 
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Black Eagle wrote:
willythesnitch wrote:
Black Eagle wrote:

If you trade way something, it means you don't need it and have nothing to do with it. You allways have a choice to trade, but that's not a real choice.


???

You've never traded away something you could use later for something you could really use now?

I think I see why you re trying to change the game.


But you can't use it later for anything but city upgrade

Not entirely true. 4 of the same commodity can always be traded for one of anything else via global trade action.
 
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Nathan Cornelius
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willythesnitch wrote:
Black Eagle wrote:
Aqueduct -
Way too powerful. Instead of choosing a resouce, you get a resource according to the number of the yellow die:
1 - wood
2 - Ore
3- Grain
4- Ship
5- Brick
6 - Nothing.

Not too powerful. I would always prefer to get a good roll than get one card.

Agreed. In reality the Aqueduct is not as powerful as it may seem. By the time you get it, if you have expanded at a resonable rate, there are typically only a select few numbers which this would apply to. Thus there are still many situations in which you can have a "bad roll" and the Aqueduct not apply.

Also in regards to your modification you must keep math and statistics in mind. In theory by basing it off the yellow die it looks as though they have a chance at each type of resource, however in reality there will only be a few different numbers to which the Aqueduct even applies and therefore only limited values of the yellow die in order to make those numbers (particularly if they are very high or very low - which is likely to be the case).


willythesnitch wrote:
Black Eagle wrote:
Fortress -
Way too weak.I offer one or more of the followling:
1. Mighty Knights has a strength of 4
2. Mighty Knights can be activated by any resources.
3. Mighty Knights can be activated several times in one turn.
4. You can't use the "Deserter" card on a player owning a Fortress, unless you own a Fortress yourself.
5. Keep using the "Largest Army" card - among the players who has Fortress, the one with the largest army's strength (for this purpuse counts both active and inactive knights) gets the card. Now, If you are the first to build the Fortress, you get the Largest Army!

Only weak if everyone has one. Otherwise, being able to field 2 knights with a total of 6 strength is awesome, and only 2 wheat to activate them.

It is also quite a benefit when one has two strong knights and the Smith progress card, thus making the card unusable without having a Fortress. I do however like the idea of #4 regarding the Deserter card.


willythesnitch wrote:
Black Eagle wrote:
Commodities -
Catan was allways about choices: Should I use my ore for a develepment card, or should I save it for a City?
Should I use my wheat for a develepment card, or should I save it for a Settelmant?
But that is gone when it comes to commodities, since there is only one thing you can do with them.
I offer to the following rule:
You may trade 1 coin for 1 ore
You may trade 1 cloth for 1 ship
You may trade 1 paper for 1 wood
Since this makes the Marchant Guild less affective, change it so you can
trade any 2 commodities to another commoditiy, or any 1 commoditiy to any 1 resources.

What do think about this changes?

There is always two thinks you can do with commodities, upgrade and trade. People who cannot produce a commodity are often looking to trade for at least one to get a chance for a card. Therefore they usually offer a good trade rate. And once you have the merchant guild, then trade them 2 for 1. Great stuff.

Commodities are essentially designed to be unique and have a specific purpose. As mentioned you do have the choice to trade with them, or if you wish not to and are unable to build with them until you acquire more they can remain in your hand - but that is also a choice.

An idea I did have however when combining with Caravans is to use Commodities for the voting round in camel placement - though I have not yet playtested it.
 
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Erik C
Canada
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One thing to keep in mind is overall balance versus balance of each stage-3 development. People who grab blue/politics developments are getting the politics cards which I find to be very powerful, especially the spy. People are already fighting for the best access to ore in this city/knight based expansion, and almost every game the first cities I see are next to ore. I don't think there's a need to create MORE competition for those spots by improving the coin-based developments.

I think the deserter not working on the fortress goes against the 'development cards excel at hurting those ahead of you' theme. Also players with lots of knights can just send a weak knight to be the deserter.

Even if the city improvements are imbalanced, this doesn't need to be fixed unless it presents a gameplay problem. People go for resources for many reasons, I play this expansion with some moderately advanced players and it's never been an issue. If we started gaming for the aqueduct first as we got better, I think this would just add nuance to the game rather than ruining it. Forcing players to try to claim the best wood spots would be interesting since in K&C so much value is placed on getting initial ore, sheep and wheat spots. It's almost like it was intentionally done as good design.
 
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Jörg Baumgartner
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The aqueduct can be weakened by adopting the gold rule from Explorers and Pirates, giving the owner of the aqueduct the choice to pick a resource of his choice or half a resource in the shape of a gold piece, while everyone else without the aqueduct takes a gold piece if their numbers aren't rolled.

In our games, the politics cards usually are regarded as less helpful - too many of them just block your hand because you cannot play them.

I should note that I play C&K with the house rule that the red die required to draw a progress card is reduced by 1, so that drawing a card becomes a little less standard whenever no ship is rolled on the event die. Not because your hand is full, but because you still might not qualify to draw a card. (Unless you play the house rule that you may discard a card after drawing one - that tends to extract the VP card quite quickly.)
 
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Erik C
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I think reducing the red die by 1 (in the direction of drawing fewer Dev cards) might make the blue deck weaker. It means fewer targets for the spies. Also the VP cards in the dev decks only occur in the green and yellow decks IIRC. That would mean that the players focusing on the green/yellow deck are less likely to be ahead in VPs and the blue deck cards that affect players ahead in VP are less likely to function.
 
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Jörg Baumgartner
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eriktheguy wrote:
I think reducing the red die by 1 (in the direction of drawing fewer Dev cards) might make the blue deck weaker. It means fewer targets for the spies. Also the VP cards in the dev decks only occur in the green and yellow decks IIRC. That would mean that the players focusing on the green/yellow deck are less likely to be ahead in VPs and the blue deck cards that affect players ahead in VP are less likely to function.

The VP are in the blue and the green progress card deck (the yellow deck has the merchant as bonus VP).

We usually have two to three progress cards in our hands any time after the second city any way, and the spy cards usually yield green cards or the merchant in our games.
 
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Erik C
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Yes, you're right. The Blue improvements tend to be about on par with the others and the fortress doesn't add anything amazing. People in my games do tend to prefer paper/cloth over coin, but I still don't see them rushing for forest/pasture over mountain when placing settlements. I don't think it has a negative impact on the game as the strategic choices are still fairly deep.

Edit: To put it another way, the best improvements go to the people who build on resources that don't produce as much ore. The people with less ore are less likely to get improvements because they have fewer cities. This forces a strategic choice and makes an interesting game. That's good.
 
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