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Sekigahara: The Unification of Japan» Forums » Rules

Subject: Question about mustering into a siege rss

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Marshall P.
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If I have one block inside a castle on a friendly recruitment location, and a stack of enemy blocks outside the castle at that location, can I muster a single block straight into the castle?
 
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Christopher Donovan
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No, you only control the castle, not the space itself.

4.3 Castles
...During a siege, the castle is controlled by one player and the location attached to it is controlled by the other...
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David Bohnenberger
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We had a similar question, and decided that it would be possible to muster into the space only if you then attack with the blocks, including the block already in the castle. The rulebook sez:

Quote:
Mustering Into Combat: Blocks can be Mustered into a combat situation only if the combat was initiated by blocks on the board - an attack cannot come from the Recruitment Box, but it can be supported from there.


It kinda makes sense. Unless the troops are born in the castle, they would have no way to enter when it is under siege, except by fighting their way in.

In no way should this be construed as an official answer, though.
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Adam Parker
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Marshall, you can still Muster there, but as you David says, all blocks must then declare a Battle in the Combat Phase.

If applicable, any 2 blocks can then Retreat into the Castle if they lose that Battle and survive.

But if you fight a Battle with only 2 blocks of course, and lose, at the most you'll only have 1 block left to retreat away.
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Matt Calkins
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Adam Parker wrote:
Marshall, you can still Muster there, but as you David says, all blocks must then declare a Battle in the Combat Phase.

If applicable, any 2 blocks can then Retreat into the Castle if they lose that Battle and survive.

But if you fight a Battle with only 2 blocks of course, and lose, at the most you'll only have 1 block left to retreat away.


This is correct. You cannot muster directly into a besieged castle, but rather into combat (which must be initiated by the blocks inside the castle) followed perhaps by a retreat into the castle, if that combat proves unsuccessful.
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Christopher Donovan
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mcalkins wrote:
Adam Parker wrote:
Marshall, you can still Muster there, but as you David says, all blocks must then declare a Battle in the Combat Phase.

If applicable, any 2 blocks can then Retreat into the Castle if they lose that Battle and survive.

But if you fight a Battle with only 2 blocks of course, and lose, at the most you'll only have 1 block left to retreat away.


This is correct. You cannot muster directly into a besieged castle, but rather into combat (which must be initiated by the blocks inside the castle) followed perhaps by a retreat into the castle, if that combat proves unsuccessful.


Interesting - I assumed 7.2 B meant that a single-block muster of a non-matching clan could only be mustered into a friendly-CONTROLLED recruitment location, but the rule is referring to a recruitment location of your color, regardless of who actually controls the location. Thank you for the clarification.

In the case of a siege where the active player owns the besieged blocks and wants to start a field battle with solely those blocks - must the active player spend a Move to activate that location in order to initiate a Field Battle, or is it a "free" action to do so?
 
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Adam Parker
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Zerosum wrote:
In the case of a siege where the active player owns the besieged blocks and wants to start a field battle with solely those blocks - must the active player spend a Move to activate that location in order to initiate a Field Battle, or is it a "free" action to do so?


No. Combat just occurs whenever forces find themselves in the same location. Remember that all combat occurs after all movement.

If you are the Active Player, you must "declare" whether you are inside or outside your Castle in each of your Combat Phases. If the latter, you've declared a Battle.

Going back to the first question, by mustering blocks into a Siege location, you're deciding in advance that a Battle is what your declaration will be once it comes to your Combat Phase.

Just remember that movement is separate from combat in this game.
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Ralph Mazza
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I understand that this is an official ruling and it certainly makes sense to have ruled that way. But that is definitely NOT in line with the actual rules as written.

Rule 7.2 under mustering into combat clearly says you can muster into a combat SITUATION if the combat was initiated by blocks currently on the board. As written this can ONLY refer to a combat that was initiated on a PREVIOUS turn (or previous players part of the current turn) because combat comes AFTER movement in the turn order and mustering is part of movement. Therefor, at the time the block is mustered, there has been NO combat initiated on THIS player's turn. The text also very clearly says mustering into a combat "situation" NOT mustering into a "combat" which is completely in line with the interpretation that no combat has actually yet been initiated.

Thus to suggest that you must actually fight a battle in the location if you muster there is completely at odds with both the actual rules text as written and the turn order. I'm not a fan of any rules interpretation that requires you to actually step outside the specific turn order as an exception to the normal rules. The normal rules say movement then combat, since muster is part of movement I shouldn't be declaring combat when I muster and, in fact, the rule doesn't require me to...it simply says "combat situation" not "combat".

Its clear from context that the prohibition against launching an attack from the reinforcement box is there to allow you to occupy a recruiting location and prevent mustering.


Secondly, declaring combat occurs in 8.1. This makes it clear that there is no combat being declared during movement/muster. Combat is declared as part of combat.

Thirdly, the irrefutable clincher is 8.9.2 which says very precisely "When combat is designated, AND NOT BEFORE, the side that owns the castle may choose whether to be inside or outside of the castle" So by rules as written one CANNOT...in fact is strictly prohibited...from declaring blocks in the castle or out of the castle during mustering.


Taken in total, the actual rules as written work as follows:

1) You are allowed to muster into a location containing enemy blocks, you do not declare combat at this time and you do not declare yourself in or out of a castle at this time.

2) During the combat step (which is AFTER movement/muster) you declare combat in every location where opposing units are found

3) Only at that time (and not before) does the owner of a castle decide whether the units are in the castle or not. While 8.9.2 prohibits you from being in the castle if you have more than 2 blocks it does NOT include a prohibition against declaring newly mustered units to be in the castle.

Therefor, the official ruling above, while it makes complete sense, is actually a violation of the rules as written. If that ruling is to stand then the next edition of the living rules needs to include in 8.9.2. a prohibition that says "blocks can not be declared to be in a castle during the combat turn of the same turn they were mustered".
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Adam Parker
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I think this aspect of the game is clear (then again, every time someone asks a question lately my focus widens):

1. You can only muster units into an enemy occupied location if you have friendly units there.

2. All friendly units will then join together in the battle that follows.

3. This includes the case of mustering into a location where your forces are besieged:

Quote:
"8.9.6 If other blocks enter the location containing friendly besieged blocks then all blocks are counted in the battle. Any battle that occurs in any location automatically includes all blocks in that location, regardless of the presence of a castle."

The spirit - even the wording of the whole rules here I think are straight forward: Whenever you move or find your blocks in contact with enemy blocks in the Movement Phase, you're initiating combat. In the Combat Phase that follows, you're declaring what type of combat that will be.
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Matt Calkins
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Adam Parker wrote:
I think this aspect of the game is clear (then again, every time someone asks a question lately my focus widens):

1. You can only muster units into an enemy occupied location if you have friendly units there.

2. All friendly units will then join together in the battle that follows.

3. This includes the case of mustering into a location where your forces are besieged:

Quote:
"8.9.6 If other blocks enter the location containing friendly besieged blocks then all blocks are counted in the battle. Any battle that occurs in any location automatically includes all blocks in that location, regardless of the presence of a castle."

The spirit - even the wording of the whole rules here I think are straight forward: Whenever you move or find your blocks in contact with enemy blocks in the Movement Phase, you're initiating combat. In the Combat Phase that follows, you're declaring what type of combat that will be.


I agree with what Adam has written.

Also I want to clarify that I consider a siege to be a 'combat situation'. Since enemies coexist already in this location, combat will have to be declared here in the combat phase, regardless of mustering or not. As such, you are not creating a combat situation through the act of mustering.
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Ralph Mazza
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Understood, and again makes sense. But its not consistant. To make it easier to see what im saying consider the simpler case of a siege without mustering involved.

Its my turn, its my castle. On my movement phase we know there is a combat situation. I have a block in the location you have a bunch During the combat phase we declare the combat in that location, its mandatory. But wait I have only 1 block and I control the castle, I declare myself in the castle. Per the rules, the result of this declared combat is no actual fighting occurs. Did I miss anything? Are we agreed that this sequence is how the situation plays out?

Now let's go back and add a mustered block to the situation. Is there a combat situation? Yep so its allowed. Is the combat declared in the combat phase? Yup, still mandatory. Do I have 2 blocks or less? Yup, well that's the only limit on my ability to declare inside the castle.

Notice how the addition of the muster block didn't change anything about the situation and that there is no rule that says the steps of this situation changes. The mustering into combat specifically gives permission to muster into a combat situation. We followed the combat rules exactly and those rules specifically allow the active player to retreat to a castle and if they do the combat ends with no actual fighting.
 
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Ralph Mazza
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To be clear, I don't mind having this tactic dissallowed. When I used it in a recent game it was an act of despiration and I pointed it out as kind of a dick move at the time...but I had thought I'd stumbled into an intentionally designed tactic, because the rules cleary do not prohibit this I'd assumed it was designed to make it harder to win sieges without bringing an army strong enough to hit 14 impact.

A dedicated defender willing to spend moves on inefficient 1 block musters could thus keep a desultory attacker at bay indefinitely...which seemed right in line with the design notes.

Im cool with it being changed, but I think that is definitely a change and not how the rule is written currently.
 
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Matt Calkins
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Just to clarify:

Mustering is to a location, not to a castle within a location. Thus, it is not possible to muster into the walls of a castle. If a block is added to a besieged position, then the ensuing combat must be outside the walls.

There is only one situation in which a block can enter a location and the besieged castle simultaneously, and I had to spell it out in the rules: retreats into a besieged position where combat was already declared.
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Ralph Mazza
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Matt, I understand that. That's why I laid out the steps exactly as above.

During movement you muster into a location. Your newly mustered unit is OUTSIDE of the castle, right. I get it.

Then during combat you declare combat for that location. At that time, the rules clearly give the owner of the castle -- at that moment and not before -- the option to move into the castle as long as you have 2 blocks or less.

There is nothing currently in the rules that bar you from doing this.

So if it is the intention to disallow it, a rule needs to be added forbidding blocks from moving into a castle on the same turn they are mustered. Any block already in the castle would then, by existing rules, be forced to fight outside as well.
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Patrick B
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This was posted 21 days ago. Can we get a ruling on this? Valamir's point is perfectly logical.
 
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Matt Calkins
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Valamir's proposed move, in which blocks are mustered into a siege defense location and then withdraw into the castle prior to combat, is not allowed.

Rather, if blocks are mustered into a siege defense location (which is perfectly legal) there must be a combat outside the walls prior to any retreat into the castle.

The confusion lies in whether the active player may declare themselves inside the castle with blocks that have just entered the location. That is not the meaning of the declaration rule. Declaring oneself inside the castle can be done if you are the inactive player in possession of a castle, and the active player invades your location.
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So, if I have two blocks into a besieged castle and in my turn i do muster for a third block there, i must declare a combat in the location. In this situation, if the impacts are tie in the end of the battle, i ll lose because i consider myself attacker, although the castle is mine. Right?
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Matt Calkins
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yes
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