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Subject: gargoyles, gnolls, zombies... feedback please rss

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*********Latest Versions*********

Zombies (5/18) - Every time a zombie region is conquered, the zombie player may roll the die and gain that number zombies. If the zombies gain any in this way, the conquering race discards one token to the tray. Zombies may not expand from regions conquered in the same turn. In other words, they may only attack regions which they are adjacent to at the beginning their turn (after they conquer their first region).

Gargoyle (6/11) - when the player has no active race, Gargoyles may become active, and may do so without penalty. They may even become active during the turn when the player is putting another in decline; however they must return to decline before the player selects his next active race. Gargoyles do not count toward the players number of in decline races, but they do count toward the number of active races. Whlie in decline, gargoyles do NOT earn VP, but instead add one defense. Gargoyles may co-habitate regions with the players other races.

Gnolls (6/11) - surviving Gnolls may redeploy immediately after being conquered, instead of returning to the players hand. If enough Gnolls survived to do so, they may immediately conquer any available adjacent region (without the use of the reinforcement die). If they conquer a region in this manner, they immediately score the VP.

Gremlins (6/11) - When conquering, every non-racial token adding defense to the enemy region (for example: forts, mountains, lairs, etc.) no longer adds defense, and instead counts as a gremlin token. This does not apply to tokens which make the region immune to conquest. At least one true gremlin token is required to take the region in this manner. The defensive token follows it's normal rules for when after it's region is conquered. Whenever gremlins conquer a region that is giving any number of bonus coins to its inhabitant for any reason, the gremlins earn that vp in that round as well (for example: conquering fortified humans on a farmland would earn the gremlins 3 vp).

Hobgoblins (5/10) - When hobgoblins conquer a region, the opponent must return two tokens to the tray (if there at least 2 enemy tokens occupying the region). If the enemy opponents are elves, they must return 1 token.

Centaurs (6/11) - Centaurs may travel through any region that is unoccupied or controlled by a non-active race, (in decline or lost tribe) by placing one token in the region (SWU river rules).

**********************************

I've recently gotten hooked on small world. This game's just begging for custom races and powers! I've taken a look at the expansions that are out now (I'm sure I'll be getting them!), and I was surprised that some common fantasy races haven't been adapted to the game yet. I'm still a newbie with this game, and I'm not too good at writing rules, so feedback from the community would be greatly appreciated

- Zombies: my goal here is a race that increases in numbers quickly, without stepping on the abilities of the sorcerer or skeletons; as well as being limited in attack options (slow moving).

Zombies (5/18) - for every second region lost, one token of the conquering race is returned to the tray, and one zombie token is added to the zombie players hand, to be put into into play during his turn. Zombies may not expand from regions conquered in the same turn. In other words, they may only attack regions which they are adjacent to at the beginning their turn.

I like the way movement is handled with this, but I'm not sure there isn't a better way to handle the number increase.

- Gargoyles: I thought there should be a race that allows the player to act during the round in which they put a race in decline. Who better than the gargoyles!

Gargoyle (6/11) - after going into decline, when the players next active race goes into decline, the gargoyles immediately become active. At the beginning of the next turn the player selects a new active race and the gargoyles again go into decline but do not count as an in decline race, nor do they add VP. Gargoyles in decline may co-habitate regions with friendly races, adding +1 defense.

I like this one in theory; of course it will need to be play tested, and I'm not sure the rules are concise enough.

- Gnolls: I haven't seen this mechanic in any of the races I've seen, perhaps its a special power somewhere...

Gnolls (5/10) - surviving Gnolls redeploy immediately after being conquered, instead of returning to the players hand.

Pretty simple really...

I'd like to come up with good mechanics for the Minotaur, something similar (but not identical) to the berserk power. After that I'll look at the Hobgoblin!

Thoughts? Thanks in advance!
 
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Not sure if the figures are tweaked for balancing (2nd region lost for zombies, numbers and etc), but I like your ideas!

However I think the zombies and gargoyles are a bit....underpowered,since the zombies have a restrictive ability and just 5 for units, but their ability only works HALF the time.

Gargoyles on the other hand,could only use their ability 2 to 3 times at most,since declining too much would be counter productive for the player.Also there is the risk that the gargoyles might come out too late, hence making the possibility of declining another race even more rare. Although I'm not sure how much balancing would the +1 defense be...

What i propose is increasing the ability of these 2 races :

zombies : For every region lost, one of the conquering token is returned to the tray,and a zombie token is added to the players hand.

Gargoyle: Instead of at every decline, make its ability as every 2 turns.(like the were- ability)
 
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Yeah, I'm really not sure how to make the zombies work. If they get a zombie token every time, they are essentially the elves, because their numbers will stay the same... but more powerful because they cause the conquering enemy to lose one as well...

I'm sure there's an answer here. I really want their numbers to INCREASE by being attacked, but still be killable. How about if there is one zombie on a region, it dies like normal; but if there are 2 or more they return to hand AND convert one of the conqueror?

Or maybe you must beat the zombies by 2, or else they return to hand and take one conqueror?


Every time a zombie region is conquered, the zombie player may roll the die and gain that number zombies. If the zombies gain any in this way, the conquering race discards one token to the tray! I like that one!

I definitely see your point about gargoyles, but I don't think its more of a problem than a 'spirit' race coming in late (which is what their ability is a twist on). The real reason behind them is to add a function that can be used during the "going into decline" round. It's working the mechanic first, then finding a race to fit the theme.

What if I make them stronger by ALWAYS giving them +1 defense and the ability to co-habitate, instead of just while in decline? I think that'd be pretty neat. They could move through friendly territory by leaving one token in that region. You could really move across the board quickly!

Thanks for your input! I definitely wantingto try these races now!

Still not sure what to do with a Minotaur but how about this for the Hobgoblin... artificial defenses such as forts or troll lairs actually work AGAINST the defending race! Say the enemy has one human on a fort... the Hobgoblin would only need two to conquer that region! Ooh, and they should be able to kill the elves too...

What d'ya think??
 
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joshdeacon wrote:
Yeah, I'm really not sure how to make the zombies work. If they get a zombie token every time, they are essentially the elves, because their numbers will stay the same... but more powerful because they cause the conquering enemy to lose one as well...

I'm sure there's an answer here. I really want their numbers to INCREASE by being attacked, but still be killable. How about if there is one zombie on a region, it dies like normal; but if there are 2 or more they return to hand AND convert one of the conqueror?

Or maybe you must beat the zombies by 2, or else they return to hand and take one conqueror?

Every time a zombie region is conquered, the zombie player may roll the die and gain that number zombies. If the zombies gain any in this way, the conquering race discards one token to the tray! I like that one!

I definitely see your point about gargoyles, but I don't think its more of a problem than a 'spirit' race coming in late (which is what their ability is a twist on). The real reason behind them is to add a function that can be used during the "going into decline" round. It's working the mechanic first, then finding a race to fit the theme.

What if I make them stronger by ALWAYS giving them +1 defense and the ability to co-habitate, instead of just while in decline? I think that'd be pretty neat. They could move through friendly territory by leaving one token in that region. You could really move across the board quickly!

Thanks for your input! I definitely wantingto try these races now!

Still not sure what to do with a Minotaur but how about this for the Hobgoblin... artificial defenses such as forts or troll lairs actually work AGAINST the defending race! Say the enemy has one human on a fort... the Hobgoblin would only need two to conquer that region! Ooh, and they should be able to kill the elves too...

What d'ya think??


LOVE your final tweaks on both races!Yeah I didn't think about the elves when i came up with my zombie tweak.
It make sense thematically also,since in most zombie movies the heroes have no problem killing a lone zombie, but sometimes get ambushed by one while attacking another.
The gargoyles is an interesting choice as well. To use it as an active race to spread out, or to decline now and provide some sort of moving defensive-fortress advantage for the active race. However, now I think the gargoyles are a bit too powerful. Maybe cut down their numbers by 1 ?

As for the hobgoblins though,I don't really get what you mean by that. Does it mean that when they attack a region guarded by a fort, instead of providing a +1 defense, the fort would become a -1 defense for the humans?
 
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joshdeacon wrote:
I've recently gotten hooked on small world. This game's just begging for custom races and powers!


Oh no...

joshdeacon wrote:
I've taken a look at the expansions that are out now (I'm sure I'll be getting them!), and I was surprised that some common fantasy races haven't been adapted to the game yet.


Check the variants forum threads - I might believe every race, or nearly so, has been considered.
 
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Actually I think I've gone through every thread regarding new races over the past week laugh. I've found some good ideas that I've already decided to add to my game, but I think these bring some new ideas as well (at least, I haven't seen them).

genesyx wrote:

As for the hobgoblins though,I don't really get what you mean by that. Does it mean that when they attack a region guarded by a fort, instead of providing a +1 defense, the fort would become a -1 defense for the humans?


Yes, thats exactly what it means! The hobgoblins are a "counter" race. Think you're safe in your fort? The hobgoblins will surround it and burn it down! This will apply to Troll Lairs, Fortresses, Mountains, Encampments... basically anything that adds defense but does not make the region immune.

Hobgoblins (5 (10 total)) - When conquering, every (non-racial) token adding defense to the enemy region no longer adds defense, and instead counts as a hobgoblin token. At least one true hobgoblin token is required to take the region in this manner. The defensive token follows it's normal rules for when it's region is conquered.

Thoughts?

Here's a new one:

Centaurs (6/11) - Centaurs may travel through any non-occupied OR 'friendly' region by placing only a single token in that region; and then redeploying said token. (its the same as the rivers in underground... I know I dont write rules very concisely )
 
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I'll take this one. Keep in mind when I say "playtest carefully" it means I don't see anything obviously wrong about them but I'm not sure they are balanced.

joshdeacon wrote:
****Latest Versions*****

Zombies (5/18) - Every time a zombie region is conquered, the zombie player may roll the die and gain that number zombies. If the zombies gain any in this way, the conquering race discards one token to the tray Zombies may not expand from regions conquered in the same turn. In other words, they may only attack regions which they are adjacent to at the beginning their turn.

Interesting. Very similar to pixies but with multiple additional advantages and disadvantages. Might want to make a note on the first turn they can conquer multiple regions adjacent to the sea and border or else they are much too weak. Playtest carefully

joshdeacon wrote:

Gargoyle (6/11) - Gargoyles may switch from active to decline or vice-versa, and may do so without penalty. They may even become active during the turn when the player is putting another in decline; however they must return to decline before the player selects his next active race. Whlie in decline, gargoyles do NOT earn VP, but instead add one defense. Gargoyles do not count toward the players number of in decline races, but they do count toward the number of active races. Gargoyles may co-habitate regions with friendly races.

While I think I see what you Intended for this race you need to re-word it much clearer cause as is its not very clear when they attack and how they interact with your other races.

joshdeacon wrote:

Gnolls (5/10) - surviving Gnolls redeploy immediately after being conquered, instead of returning to the players hand.

A defensive power race that has no ability in decline should start with at least 6 units. With 5 units they are pathetic compared to trolls. With 6 they are still kinda weak compared to them

joshdeacon wrote:

Hobgoblins (5/10) - When conquering, every (non-racial) token adding defense to the enemy region no longer adds defense, and instead counts as a hobgoblin token. At least one true hobgoblin token is required to take the region in this manner. The defensive token follows it's normal rules for when it's region is conquered.

You are going to have to specify much more how this power works. As written it is pretty bad. I'm not sure if you intended it to work on mountains or not but as written it excludes them ("every (non-racial) token adding defense to the enemy region", Mountains being part of a regions would be excluded from this wording cause mountain regions have an inherent defense of 3). As written they only work on Troll lairs and Fortresses which for a faction you felt needed 5 tokens stead of the normal 6 is pretty terrible.

joshdeacon wrote:

Centaurs (6/11) - Centaurs may travel through any non-occupied OR 'friendly' region by placing only a single token in that region; and then redeploying said token. (the same as the rivers in underground)

Something to note. The base game flying ability completely kills off several possible variant abilities. Like Lizzardmen and Spiderines from SWU Flying would completely encompass Centaur's power. That on top of the fact its a bad power (You want to conquer areas not be forced to abandon them) and you don't have a recipe for success
 
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allstar64 wrote:

Interesting. Very similar to pixies but with multiple additional advantages and disadvantages. Might want to make a note on the first turn they can conquer multiple regions adjacent to the sea and border or else they are much too weak. Playtest carefully


Yes, I actually came up with this before I saw the pygmies. I just got "be not afraid" in the mail today... at first I was bummed that it was similar, but I think its still different enough. Also you are right, after they first move onto the board, they can attack all adjacent regions.

allstar64 wrote:

While I think I see what you Intended for this race you need to re-word it much clearer cause as is its not very clear when they attack and how they interact with your other races.


I agree; I started my post by saying writing rules concisely is not my strong suit

allstar64 wrote:

A defensive power race that has no ability in decline should start with at least 6 units. With 5 units they are pathetic compared to trolls. With 6 they are still kinda weak compared to them


Right... I'm upping them to 6 and adding this: if there are enough surviving gnolls after they lose a region, they may immediately ATTACK an adjacent region instead of being redeployed, and gain that VP immediately if they conquer it! I dont think it will happen often, but it seems like a neat idea

allstar64 wrote:

You are going to have to specify much more how this power works. As written it is pretty bad. I'm not sure if you intended it to work on mountains or not but as written it excludes them ("every (non-racial) token adding defense to the enemy region", Mountains being part of a regions would be excluded from this wording cause mountain regions have an inherent defense of 3). As written they only work on Troll lairs and Fortresses which for a faction you felt needed 5 tokens stead of the normal 6 is pretty terrible.


Again you are right, but I'm not sure how to word it better. I disagree that mountains inherently have 3, it is the mountain token that gives the mountain region a defense of 3. I'm upping it to 6/11 and changing the name to "gremlins" (more fitting, imo. Hobgoblins now kill 2 when conquering, 1 if vs. elf).

allstar64 wrote:

Something to note. The base game flying ability completely kills off several possible variant abilities. Like Lizzardmen and Spiderines from SWU Flying would completely encompass Centaur's power. That on top of the fact its a bad power (You want to conquer areas not be forced to abandon them) and you don't have a recipe for success


yes, I've been thinking about that today. The reason for this race is my girlfriend always wants to 'play thru' her in-decline race. While I dont think that should always be allowed, I do agree with her that there should be some mechanic for that.

I dont have a problem with 'flying' negating the power as long as, like you said, other races are effected as well. theres gonna be some bad combos. But still I'm gonna change it to mimic the lizardmen, and let them move thru forest and hill regions without having to conquer. Still not a great power, but I could see it being used often.

Thanks for your help!
 
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joshdeacon wrote:

I dont have a problem with 'flying' negating the power as long as, like you said, other races are effected as well. theres gonna be some bad combos. But still I'm gonna change it to mimic the lizardmen, and let them move thru forest and hill regions without having to conquer. Still not a great power, but I could see it being used often.

Thanks for your help!


Yeah but the races I mentioned are all from SWU not Small World Base and were probably made with the notion that SWU would have no "flying" ability which increase the value of movement abilities (though they do have the Doormat and Brass Pipe. Funny story my first SWU game I had the doormat and the Brass Pipe with Lizzardmen). If you have your heart set on movement try to give them another small benefit like how Underworld gives a movement and conquering bonus. Maybe Free movement through 1 terrain type and a conquering bonus to another.

For Hobgoblins you might as well give them a -2 to conquering mountains if that's what you wanted for them. No real meaning in giving them a power that specifically works on 1 race and 1 attribute additionally although they would need to conquer 2 mountains a turn to match the bonus guaranteed to amazons every turn.
 
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allstar64 wrote:
[q="joshdeacon"]
Yeah but the races I mentioned are all from SWU not Small World Base and were probably made with the notion that SWU would have no "flying" ability which increase the value of movement abilities (though they do have the Doormat and Brass Pipe. Funny story my first SWU game I had the doormat and the Brass Pipe with Lizzardmen). If you have your heart set on movement try to give them another small benefit like how Underworld gives a movement and conquering bonus. Maybe Free movement through 1 terrain type and a conquering bonus to another.

For Hobgoblins you might as well give them a -2 to conquering mountains if that's what you wanted for them. No real meaning in giving them a power that specifically works on 1 race and 1 attribute additionally although they would need to conquer 2 mountains a turn to match the bonus guaranteed to amazons every turn.


Excellent idea for the centaurs, thank you.

For the Hobgoblins, I don't understand.... after your previous post I changed what was hobgoblins to 'gremlins' (more appropriate because they basically sabotage defenses) and their ability works on anything that gives a defense bonus. I suppose mathematically I could give a -2 to attack those spots, except:
A) that doesn't fit the theme, and
B) it doesn't work on (admittedly rare) places like trolls or forts on mountains, where defenses would stack.

The new Hobgoblins are more brutal; they deliver an extra kill when they conquer (send an extra token to the tray). This is one of the few ways to kill the elves... they kill one when they conquer, for all other races they kill 2. This should fit thematically with hobgoblins (at least how I see them).

Do you think these are good? Do you have any ideas for how I could more concisely write the rules for gargoyles?

Thanks!
 
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If you edited your first post before I missed it before. My comments were based solely on your last post. I'll look again.
******************************

Quote:
Gremlins (6/11) - When conquering, every non-racial token adding defense to the enemy region (for example: forts, mountains, lairs, etc.) no longer adds defense, and instead counts as a gremlin token. This does not apply to tokens which make the region immune to conquest. At least one true gremlin token is required to take the region in this manner. The defensive token follows it's normal rules for when after it's region is conquered.

Hobgoblins (5/10) - When hobgoblins conquer a region, the opponent must return two tokens to the tray (if there at least 2 enemy tokens occupying the region). If the enemy opponents are elves, they must return 1 token.


Hobgoblins:
Took me about 10 seconds to find this http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/650921/2-new-powers-cons...
That's been suggested soooooooooooooooooooooooooo many times and it's not a very good power outside of 1v1.

Gremlins: Still don't like this power. Its main use is to get a -2 to attacking occupied mountains and it makes trolls and fortresses useless(but nothing else really less your playing SWU in which case the Keep and shield power are added). Not only is it not that good it specifically targets a race and an attribute.
 
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allstar64 wrote:
If you edited your first post before I missed it before. My comments were based solely on your last post. I'll look again.
******************************

Hobgoblins:
Took me about 10 seconds to find this http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/650921/2-new-powers-cons...
That's been suggested soooooooooooooooooooooooooo many times and it's not a very good power outside of 1v1.

Gremlins: Still don't like this power. Its main use is to get a -2 to attacking occupied mountains and it makes trolls and fortresses useless(but nothing else really less your playing SWU in which case the Keep and shield power are added). Not only is it not that good it specifically targets a race and an attribute.


For the gremlins: I really like them. They counter forts, trolls, biouvacking, and mountains... but like you said that's not enough. Maybe playing with just the base game it'd be ok, but still not enough. I like the idea of using their opponents strengths against them though... a lot. I think I should maybe add a way for them to gain vp from their opponents vp bonuses (like humans +1 from farmland), or perhaps forcing he opponent to lose vp in some way. I dunno, I'll have to think about it, but I'm open to suggestions.

Hobgoblins: yes that ability is nothing new or special. But I'm ok with that. The vast majority of games I play are 2 players, so its no surprise my variants would be geared that way.

Centaurs: I feel like they have strayed too far from the original idea, which was to create a mechanic to allow traveling thru one's own in-decline occupied territories. This may be better as a power than a race; but as I said before I'm ok with creating an underpowered race. I think I'll try allowing them to travel thru ANY (yours or your opponents) declined or unoccupied regions, using the SWU river rules.

Lastly, did you see the change to Gnolls? They can (potentially) attack while being attacked! This is also inspired by another thread, but I think it fits better here.

Thanks!
 
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joshdeacon wrote:

For the gremlins: I really like them. They counter forts, trolls, biouvacking, and mountains... but like you said that's not enough. Maybe playing with just the base game it'd be ok, but still not enough. I like the idea of using their opponents strengths against them though... a lot. I think I should maybe add a way for them to gain vp from their opponents vp bonuses (like humans +1 from farmland), or perhaps forcing he opponent to lose vp in some way. I dunno, I'll have to think about it, but I'm open to suggestions.

Hobgoblins: yes that ability is nothing new or special. But I'm ok with that. The vast majority of games I play are 2 players, so its no surprise my variants would be geared that way.

Centaurs: I feel like they have strayed too far from the original idea, which was to create a mechanic to allow traveling thru one's own in-decline occupied territories. This may be better as a power than a race; but as I said before I'm ok with creating an underpowered race. I think I'll try allowing them to travel thru ANY (yours or your opponents) declined or unoccupied regions, using the SWU river rules.

Lastly, did you see the change to Gnolls? They can (potentially) attack while being attacked! This is also inspired by another thread, but I think it fits better here.

Thanks!

Gremlins as they are currently written don't work on Biouvacks. Scoring a bonus coin when conquering an occupied region that grants a bonus coin as well might work. Make sure to word it appropriatly.

For Gnolls (and also Hobgoblins actually) you can look at this threads rallying and cannibal.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/7259382#7259382
 
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