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Subject: [7.6] Unit placement question rss

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Edward Hung
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Hi,

In second bullet, Soviet units are placed in any soviet controlled city... is it talking about city in USSR?

Thanks.

Edward
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Carl Paradis
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ehung wrote:
Hi,

In second bullet, Soviet units are placed in any soviet controlled city... is it talking about city in USSR?

Thanks.

Edward


Very good question!

NOPE. ANY Soviet-controlled city. This is intended in the design.
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Edward Hung
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licinius wrote:
ehung wrote:
Hi,

In second bullet, Soviet units are placed in any soviet controlled city... is it talking about city in USSR?

Thanks.

Edward


Very good question!

NOPE. ANY Soviet-controlled city. This is intended in the design.


Thanks for Carl's quick reply.

However, [7.6],

the second bullet point:

"Soviet units are placed in any Soviet controlled City
that can trace a Supply Path (see 6.1) even in EZOCs, or
on any east or south map edge hex in Russia not in an
Enemy Zone of Control."


the third bullet point:

"In addition, Recovering (shattered) Soviet units may
also be placed in any Soviet controlled City inside
Greater Germany that can trace a Supply Path, and not
in EZOCs
."

So, the recovering (shattered) Soviet units is an exception to Soviet units in the second bullet point (if someone wants to put a recovering (shattered) Soviet unit in a Soviet controlled City inside
Greater Germany)?

Thanks.
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Kevin Davidson

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If I may Edward, yes shattered are an exception as you note. Think of the shattered units not really being taken off the board, but somewhere still in the vicinity reorganizing and able to get to the front lines quicker. Where surrendered or destroyed units are getting rebuilt etc. and take longer getting to the front.

This allows German shattered units to not have to make the long march from Germany to get to the action, and later Russian shattered units not to have to make a long march into Germany.

Cheers
Kevin
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Carl Paradis
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ehung wrote:
So, the recovering (shattered) Soviet units is an exception to Soviet units in the second bullet point (if someone wants to put a recovering (shattered) Soviet unit in a Soviet controlled City inside
Greater Germany)?

Thanks.


Yes!
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Carl Paradis
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zhodanicommando wrote:
If I may Edward, yes shattered are an exception as you note. Think of the shattered units not really being taken off the board, but somewhere still in the vicinity reorganizing and able to get to the front lines quicker. Where surrendered or destroyed units are getting rebuilt etc. and take longer getting to the front.

This allows German shattered units to not have to make the long march from Germany to get to the action, and later Russian shattered units not to have to make a long march into Germany.

Cheers
Kevin


Right. Exactly. Like Kevin said. This was the design intent.
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Edward Hung
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Just to conclude:

So, reinforcing or replaced Soviet units can be placed in Soviet-controlled cities in Greater Germany, even in EZOC.

However, recovering Soviet units can be placed in Soviet-controlled cities in Greater Germany, NOT in EZOC.
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Carl Paradis
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ehung wrote:
Just to conclude:

So, reinforcing or replaced Soviet units can be placed in Soviet-controlled cities in Greater Germany, even in EZOC.

However, recovering Soviet units can be placed in Soviet-controlled cities in Greater Germany, NOT in EZOC.


Yes.
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Kevin Davidson

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licinius wrote:
ehung wrote:
Just to conclude:

So, reinforcing or replaced Soviet units can be placed in Soviet-controlled cities in Greater Germany, even in EZOC.

However, recovering Soviet units can be placed in Soviet-controlled cities in Greater Germany, NOT in EZOC.


Yes.


Whoa! Did I have that wrong. Reinforcing or replaced Soviet units can be placed in a soviet controlled city in Greater Germany.

Why are German Reinforcing or Replaced units only placed in Germany, and the shattered ones in Germany or Russia, and not have the same ability as the soviets then?

I feel like my whole world just caved insoblue
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Carl Paradis
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zhodanicommando wrote:
licinius wrote:
ehung wrote:
Just to conclude:

So, reinforcing or replaced Soviet units can be placed in Soviet-controlled cities in Greater Germany, even in EZOC.

However, recovering Soviet units can be placed in Soviet-controlled cities in Greater Germany, NOT in EZOC.


Yes.


Whoa! Did I have that wrong. Reinforcing or replaced Soviet units can be placed in a soviet controlled city in Greater Germany.

Why are German Reinforcing or Replaced units only placed in Germany, and the shattered ones in Germany or Russia, and not have the same ability as the soviets then?

I feel like my whole world just caved insoblue


The transport system and rail net were very different in Russia. The rail net was sparser, and you had partisan activity too, so that's it's different. There was a much better transportation system, roads and rails in Europe. Plus by the time the Soviets get into Germany, they had all those lend-leased American trucks, too.

The shattered units for the Germans can be replaced near the front line, to denote that they were often able to put together "scratch" units and reorganize badly mauled ones quite fast near the front line.

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Kevin Davidson

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Man no matter how experienced one player is, sometimes we read what we want. Looked right past the comma and or for soviet shattered and saw russiamodest

Thanks for the explanation, makes more sense when I know the logic behind it.

Cheers Sensei
Kevin
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Carl Paradis
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BTW, if you guys do not like some of the rules, then by all means change them! I do this all the time with games.

The basic game engine is pretty robust and simple, so it can absorb a lot of house rules easily.

Perhaps some of the more succesfull house rules could be published in an upcoming C3i article.
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Todd Penland
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I have a question relevant to this section of the rules concerning stacking restrictions in relation to unit placement.

Rule 8.4.3 specifies an applicable penalty "at the end of any Phase or Battle". Placement is part of the Organization phase, so if I am interpreting it correctly then I would have to apply the stacking penalty at the end of the Organization phase. So for instance I effectively could not place 2 Soviet units in Kiev from the shattered box on turn 1, with the intention of moving one out during Movement. Is this correct?
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Carl Paradis
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tpenland wrote:
I have a question relevant to this section of the rules concerning stacking restrictions in relation to unit placement.

Rule 8.4.3 specifies an applicable penalty "at the end of any Phase or Battle". Placement is part of the Organization phase, so if I am interpreting it correctly then I would have to apply the stacking penalty at the end of the Organization phase. So for instance I effectively could not place 2 Soviet units in Kiev from the shattered box on turn 1, with the intention of moving one out during Movement. Is this correct?


Yes, this is correct, and intended in the design.

This rule was the subject of much talk, testing and conjecture in the first playtestings of the game in 2008. We tested it both ways, and found out that my initial rule ( no stacking ) worked better and was more historical vs units historical reinforcement and placement capabilities.

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Todd Penland
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Thank you for the quick response and explanation Carl. The rules are pretty clear on the subject, and I agree that it does make more historical sense to not allow stacking during replacements, but I just wanted to make sure.

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Carl Paradis
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tpenland wrote:
Thank you for the quick response and explanation Carl. The rules are pretty clear on the subject, and I agree that it does make more historical sense to not allow stacking during replacements, but I just wanted to make sure.



Thanks! The main rationale is that if you have a unit stacked in a city already this must mean that the enemy is near, so the recruitment/training and industries were moved a bit farther. You can still bring the units from far away using rail moves, plus the Soviets have some cards and the strategic initiative counter to help deploy those troops, too.
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Carl Paradis
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out to lunch wrote:
Just to make it clear: the placement conditions of shattered units are actually less restrictive in the case of Axis units (because they can be placed in Axis-controleed cities in the USSR) whereas they are more restrictive when it comes to Soviet units (Soviet units can be placed in any Soviet-controlled cities but shattered units have the additional restriction that they can't be placed in EZOCs). Is this right?


Right! But only when those Shattered units are uin Greater Germany. In the USSR they can be placed in EZOC.

Rule 7.6

• Soviet units are placed in any Soviet controlled City
that can trace a Supply Path (see 6.1) even in EZOCs, or
on any east or south map edge hex, in Russia, not in an
Enemy Zone of Control.

• In addition, Recovering (shattered) Soviet units may
also be placed in any Soviet controlled City inside
Greater Germany that can trace a Supply Path, and not
in EZOCs.
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Kevin Davidson

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I don't think the Germans are less restrictive though. German units (including shattered) can be place in Greater Germany in cities not in EZOC that can trace supply:

In addition German shattered units are the only ones that can be place in Soviet cities in Russia that are not in EZOC that can trace supply.

Soviet units can be placed in Russia and Greater Germany in EZOC in cities they control and trace supply to, but Soviet shattered units can not be placed in cities in Greater Germany in an EZOC.

I think the reverse is true that it is less restrictive for the Soviet player. This was a design intent, that is if I understand the rule, and Carl's explanation of it in this thread.

Cheers
Kevin
 
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Carl Paradis
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out to lunch wrote:
According to this, Soviet units can be placed in any Soviet-controlled city (including in GG) even in an EZOC (meaning even in an EZOC in a Soviet-controlled GG city). Making me wonder why this:

Quote:
• In addition, Recovering (shattered) Soviet units may
also be placed in any Soviet controlled City inside
Greater Germany that can trace a Supply Path, and not
in EZOCs.


has been added when in fact it further restricts where shattered units can be placed rather than give them additional rights.


Oh brother!!! LOL!

Perhaps the exact English wording was not 100% Rules-Lawyer-Correct, and probably because I'm just a lowly a French-speaking person?

Use this instead, then:

Recovering (shattered) Soviet units inside Greater Germany may only placed in a Soviet-controlled City that can trace a Supply Path, and not
in EZOCs


Will do the change in the living rules.
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Carl Paradis
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Of course, in retrouspect, I should have NOT done this rule ifferently for the Germans/Russinas for Simplicity's sake. Lesson learned.
 
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Kevin Davidson

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If I take what is being said correctly, it was the word "addition" that was causing the misunderstanding. If so, perhaps "also" or "further" in place of "addition" makes it better to understand?

I don't know if that will help or if Carl's solution is better.

Cheers
Kevin
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Carl Paradis
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out to lunch wrote:
Of course it was never my intention to question your skills in English (that would be rather preposterous since I'm not a native speaker myself). Sorry if that's the impression I gave.

I was genuinely confused as to how to apply this rule as I didn't know exactly if there was a contradiction or if I had just misunderstood the whole thing. But everything's clear now, thank you!


Hey, THANK YOU!!!

I agree, the rule is not that clear. My bad. I will definitley rephrase it in the "living Rules".
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Carl Paradis
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zhodanicommando wrote:
If I take what is being said correctly, it was the word "addition" that was causing the misunderstanding. If so, perhaps "also" or "further" in place of "addition" makes it better to understand?

I don't know if that will help or if Carl's solution is better.

Cheers
Kevin


Right. Excellent idea!
 
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Edward Hung
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Let me suggest looking at the rules in another way.


Shattered (recovering) units may be placed in a self-controlled city if the city can trace a supply path, not in EZOC. Exception: cities in USSR can be in EZOC for Soviet case only.

Shattered (recovering) units may be placed on a map edge (west for Axis, east or south for Soviet) hex of self country, not in EZOC.

Reinforcing/replaced units may be placed in a self-controlled city located at self country (even in Greater Germany for the case of Soviet) if the city can trace a supply path (not in EZOC for the case of Axis). In addition, for Soviet, they can be placed on a east or south map edge hex, not in EZOC.


Here's another way: (a city refers to a self-controlled city that can trace a supply path)

Which units can be placed in/on:
city in self country, not in EZOC: ALL
city in self country, in EZOC: Soviet (all)
city in enemy country, not in EZOC: Soviet (all), Axis shattered
city in enemy country, in EZOC: Soviet replaced/reinforcing
own map hex, not in EZOC: Soviet (all), Axis shattered
own map hex, in EZOC: none


Edward
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Carl Paradis
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Mhhh... Interesting proposition. Will consider.

Thanks Edward!
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