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Subject: Help a noob - alive or dead? rss

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Kevin Stone
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Ok, I'm completely new to Go but fascinated by it. I've been reading a couple of Go books and various websites and I thought i was getting a handle on things...until I played my first game against the computer. This is the end of game state,



The final score was White 24.5 (19 territory, no captures, 5.5 komi), Black 1 (0 territory, 1 capture).

I understand the concept of making two 'eyes' to ensure a group of stones live so can someone please explain to me how the White group in the top left is alive? It looks to me that they have no way of living, Black can kill them off easily, so what am I missing?

I was White by the way, I passed at this point to see what would happen and Black did the same. I haven't got my head around when to end the game yet so there may be more stones I could've played.

Thanks for your help.
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Jim Cote
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The upper left is dead. The computer might incorrectly think the entire black group is dead. With a few extra white stones, it could be dead, but it's not in this situation.
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Kevin Stone
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Wow...thanks for the quick reply! It's good to know my thinking was correct.

I shall be wary of the computer from now on.
 
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Pedro Silva
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If black plays on C5, he's group lives by making two eyes on E6 and D5, thus killing the top left group (and also the one on the left at B5).

If, on the other hand, it was white to play on C5 (instead of passing), then the black group would need to fight some more to try and make another eye on the left by killing that white group.

It really is a fascinating game, isn't it?
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George Leach
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White would need 5 unanswered moves to kill the black group...

The top left is very clearly dead. Which piece of software were you using?

I suspect you should be moving to play against real opponents fairly soon, at the level you appear to be playing at you're probably not learning much of use anymore.
 
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Marcin Krupiński
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The problem is that white stones (B3, B4 etc) in black group weren't mark as dead (in some program you have to manually do this), so computer was thinking that black group is in seki so cannot kill the white group in a corner.
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Mad Scientist Philip von Doomula
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Black won by 11.5 including the komi.
 
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Kevin Stone
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Jugular wrote:
Which piece of software were you using?


I was using qGoClient V1.5.4 with Gnugo 3.8 engine. It's the only one I've tried at the moment, can anyone recommend any more?
 
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SmartGo is loaded with features, plays decent (I think you can have it use GnuGo), but cost $$.
 
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Nacho Facello
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Jugular wrote:
White would need 5 unanswered moves to kill the black group...


Four would be enough — B2, B1, A5, C5
 
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George Leach
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nachof wrote:
Jugular wrote:
White would need 5 unanswered moves to kill the black group...


Four would be enough — B2, B1, A5, C5


B9 throw-in would then kill the top left group first. Though I guess 'unanswered' would mean black passes after C5 which would mean white gets a fifth move but it could be answered.
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Nacho Facello
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Jugular wrote:
nachof wrote:
Jugular wrote:
White would need 5 unanswered moves to kill the black group...


Four would be enough — B2, B1, A5, C5


B9 throw-in would then kill the top left group first. Though I guess 'unanswered' would mean black passes after C5 which would mean white gets a fifth move but it could be answered.


Good point. I forgot about that group.
 
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Colin Clay
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If the top left group was alive, it would only take white 3 unanswered moves to kill black =)
 
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Eric Flood
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A good rule of thumb for new players is that if you're uncertain whether or not something is alive, try to kill it. At the worst, you throw in some stones and lose this particular game. But you will gain tons of knowledge about what lives and dies very quickly.
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Herodian Smith
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Rezza wrote:
I was using qGoClient V1.5.4 with Gnugo 3.8 engine. It's the only one I've tried at the moment, can anyone recommend any more?


I use SmartGo on the ipad (the app is called SmartGo Kifu). It's expensive as apps go, I think it was $25, but I love it.
 
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Ramon Mercado
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Why did the Cyclops died... because it had only one eye.
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Ian Toltz
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blueatheart wrote:
A good rule of thumb for new players is that if you're uncertain whether or not something is alive, try to kill it.


That's officially my favorite out-of-context quote of the day. Thank you.
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Bryan Thunkd
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Asmor wrote:
blueatheart wrote:
A good rule of thumb for new players is that if you're uncertain whether or not something is alive, try to kill it.


That's officially my favorite out-of-context quote of the day. Thank you.


In that spirit of that quote... one day there are two hunters are in the woods and suddenly one falls to the ground clutching his chest, then stops moving. The other hunter can't rouse him, so he calls 911 and says "My buddy had a heart attack and I think he's dead. Oh my god, oh my god."

The 911 dispatcher says "Okay sir, calm down, the first thing is we need to make sure he's dead, can you do that?" There is a pause... a gunshot... and then the hunter says "Okay, now what?"
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