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Twilight Imperium (Third Edition): Shards of the Throne» Forums » General

Subject: What is the # 1 Flagship??? rss

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PeanutButter Jelly
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With respect to total value (cost, combat value, movement, capacity, and special ability) what are people's thoughts on the best flagships?

The top 3 as I see them are:

Mentak - cost 8, 5x2 combat, move 2, capacity 2, and takes away enemy sustain damage during battle. Easily # 1 in my book. High mobility, low cost, and a solid special ability make this the best flagship IMHO.

Jol Nar - cost 10, 2x2 combat, move 2, capacity 2, and each natural 10=3 hits. High mobility, medium price, Warsun hitting power, and a decent special ability.

Naalu - cost 9, 8x2 combat, move 2, capacity 6, and an increase of fleet supply in hex by 3. High mobility, medium price, and a solid special ability make this a great flagship. Does not hit real hard, but carry's alot (fighters) and makes accompanying fleet better.

As you can see from my choices, I prize mobility. I have found that mobility helps win games for me.

Honorable mention to me goes out to the Lizix flagship, as it's special ability, combined with racial strengths, make it a devastating combo. I could not in good conscience put in my top three due to cost. I want to play Lizix, get inheritance racial early first turn (eliminates tech pre requisites), followed the next 2 turns by Nano tech and Type IV drives which increases the mobility of the Lizix cheap dreads and the flagship alike. By turn 3 I would range the galaxy with a nigh unstoppable dreads/flagship fleet that ignores fighters. If the games lasts long enough, and resources are available, add duranium armor and assault cannons and the galaxy would tremble

I must also mention the Creuss flagship, where a devastating special ability, if used properly, can be a game changer.

Weakest Flagship is Letnev. Letnev ability is weak, and seems same as duranium armor, but it does bombard through PDS.

Only flagship that seems crucial is the Arborec, the mobile GF factory seems almost required for Arborec success.

Either way flagships add further character to the races and game.

I am curious what others preferences are?

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Eugenio -
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I think I agree with you on the top three.
Valueing more brute strenght, I think the C'morran (N'orr) is the best
But I have to disagree with you: the honorable mention goes to Arc Secundus (Letnev).
Absorbing one hit is huge, and being able to absorb two hits with the new RST is great; the only drawback is the danger of being Direct Hit.
0.0.1. is very strong, but as SUPERFLYPIMP said, it requires DNs to work, making it too costly.
I think the others are pretty average; the weakest one is maybe the Inferno, considering Muaat can build WSs from the start.
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Derek Porter
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I think that all of the flagships complement each race well, though none of them are crucial to winning, not even the Arborec's ship. The Letnev's flagship is anything but weak, especially when combined with Non-Euclidean Shielding. As long as it has a little support (and your opponent isn't holding Direct Hit), it can absorb ridiculous amounts of damage while its support remains mostly undamaged. The only thing that seems effective against it is the Mentak's Fourth Moon.
The "worst" flagship award (none of them are worthless, in my opinion) would have to go to the Muaat, followed closely by the Winnu's flagship. The Muaat can already build better units for 10, and the Winnaran flagship is alright... right up until you go up against a carrier full of fighters.
 
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Jeff S
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N'orr is better than Jol-Nar. It is slower, but it averages .4 more hits per round by itself and then the bonus to the rest of the fleet on top of that is huge.
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Brian Petersen
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You have to think that the Jol-Nar can bump that movement up to default 3, whilst the N'orr have no chance of getting theirs up to default 2. The Jol-Nar is more likely to be able to keep their flagship alive, whereas the N'orr would most likely lack some form of currency to get the flagship working for them. I'd also like to note that with leaders, I would put the Admiral on the Jol-Nar flagship.

I would have to say the Saar flagship is the worst. It gives them 4 AFB rather than them getting ADT and having 4/3 destroyers. A close second is the Winnu, since they lack firepower against fighters. As Letnev, I'm just too paranoid about Direct Hit AC to use repair abilities, but I do see how bad it is that they can negate 4 hits per round.

IMO, the best is Nekro. It costs 9 and single-handedly obliterates an opponents fleet. If it survives PDS fire, and the enemy lands 2 hits, you gain a tech and let somebody else go for that system. Hopefully the table has researched Type IV Drive, Gravity Drive, and/or Lightwave Deflectors so you can get it to the heaviest fleet on the map. Creuss and N'orr come in second, followed by Yin and Jol-Nar.

The most annoying is the Xxcha. I did not have fun sitting next to them and getting hit with 8 PDSs each time I activated a system.
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Martin Larouche
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I disagree with all of your choices.

The best flagship, bar none, is definitely the Ghost. Building an insane fleet in your homeworld and bringing it anywhere on the board near your flagship is better than any combat-oriented flagship.
The Ghost are essentially defined by their flagship and racial techs much more than their abilities on their sheet.

After that, i'd vote for the Nekro flagship. In combat, it will win against anything in the end. I've seen players abandon an artifact that was protected by a massive fleet in the face of that flagship coming. Better lose the artifact than their big fleet.
I've seen people consider abandoning their homeworld for some time rather than lose everything from an eminent Nekro flagship attack.

My third choice would be the 'norr flagship. Having the combined strength of +2 from racial ability and the flagship, as well as strong combat dices means it becomes the strongest unit combat-wise.

On the other hand, the pirate's flagship is just average in it's combat dices and it's ability to cancel sustain damage is good, but much less so than all three above-mentionned.
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Scott Lewis
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deedob wrote:
After that, i'd vote for the Nekro flagship. In combat, it will win against anything in the end.

I think I'd say that it won't lose against anything in the end.

I think the best way to counter the Nekro flagship is to send in just enough stuff that you'll destroy the flagship; it's an expensive bomb, and slow to boot. Make Nekro more willing to protect it by throwing cannon fodder at it so it never has a chance to get to your big fleets.
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Washington Irving
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Nekro is the only Flagship I've seen put to good use: it protected the homeworld delaying invasion for a round, which was enough time for the Nekro to win the game.

I've seen Embers and Muaat Mentak build their flagships and in both cases it seemed they would have been better off spending their money in other ways.

The Yssaril flagship look very good to me: with three fighters, two mechs you can threaten a strike just about anywhere. Combined with stalling it makes invasion and blockading objections much easier and can be good fro nabbing that last artifact.

-edited
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Michael Cohen
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I think there's also a huuuge distinction between Flagships that move 1 and those that move 2. Moving 1 sucks badly.
One of my house rules is that when you put a Leader on a Flagship, it gives it +1 move, just like it does a dreadnought.
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Scott Lewis
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Vandervecken wrote:
I think there's also a huuuge distinction between Flagships that move 1 and those that move 2. Moving 1 sucks badly.
One of my house rules is that when you put a Leader on a Flagship, it gives it +1 move, just like it does a dreadnought.

I think the ships that only move 1 would be too powerful if you let them move 2 without getting the proper technology for it.

Imagine a Hil Colish with an Admiral, Gravity Drive, and Type IV Drive - it would get to move 4 spaces, and could bring an entire armada of ships from the homeworld with it!
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Martin Larouche
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sigmazero13 wrote:
Vandervecken wrote:
I think there's also a huuuge distinction between Flagships that move 1 and those that move 2. Moving 1 sucks badly.
One of my house rules is that when you put a Leader on a Flagship, it gives it +1 move, just like it does a dreadnought.

I think the ships that only move 1 would be too powerful if you let them move 2 without getting the proper technology for it.

Imagine a Hil Colish with an Admiral, Gravity Drive, and Type IV Drive - it would get to move 4 spaces, and could bring an entire armada of ships from the homeworld with it!


This... very, very much this.

As i said, i beleive the Hil Colish is the strongest flagship there is. Having it at move 2 would be insane.

The only real drawback that prevents the Ghosts from being the strongest race in the game bar none is the fact that their flagship is slow. Remove that and nobody would like to play against them...
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Scott Lewis
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deedob wrote:
The only real drawback that prevents the Ghosts from being the strongest race in the game bar none is the fact that their flagship is slow. Remove that and nobody would like to play against them...

Once the Ghosts get Gravity Drive and Slave Wormhole Generator, though, this helps mitigate that a lot; they can spawn wormholes near Hil Colish to keep it a speed 2 (and if they get Type IV Drive, which isn't that hard for them, they can still get a speed 2).

But I agree it's the getting to that point which can be rough.
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PeanutButter Jelly
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I can see from some of the choices, others prize special abilities or firepower more than mobility/cost. To each his own.

I consider the Norr flagship high on the list, especially with regards to its complimentary (diesel) special ability. Only problem is that the enemy will always see it coming, and while I prize brute force, I have found subtlety wins this game more often than force. All that being said, I would definitely buy this flagship if I were playing Norr. I cannot say the same about all flagships.

The Yssaril flagship almost made the cut, but its lack of staying power kills it in my opinion. It seems like a throw away raider to me due to the fact that unless the Yssaril have developed light wave deflectors, this ship is going alone. Great for those last minute grabs of artifacts, pre-cursor space stations, or Mecatol Rex, i.e. things that garner victory points, but again, should be easy to see coming, especially since the Yssaril are always scheming, so it can be assumed. A throw away raider fits into my subtlety schemes, but the once off nature of this ships use means I would likely not buy it unless I felt I needed it near the end game. The other ships I mentioned I would buy ASAP.

My problem with the Letnev flagship I suppose is that I bought it one game and it did little for me. It could not get to where I needed it when I needed it there. Felt I should have bought more cruisers with move of 2 that game instead. I did not get non-euclidian shielding that game, but since the flagship never made it to a useful battle, it did not matter.

I cant disagree with most pronouncements about the strength of the Cruess flagship and will always purchase it if I get the Creuss. It definitely makes them the most mobile race in the game. With that flagship on the board, along with slave wormhole generator, they can go anywhere on the board in force in any given turn (as previously stated). I don't agree with the houserules about admirals increasing the move of a flagship, as it makes the strong flagships uber strong, and the weak ones only marginally stronger.

Sick of typing for now.
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Fluff Da Sheep
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I also prize mobility above all else, and I agree that Fourth Moon is probably the best. JNS Hylarim and Matriarch are also great, but I find it odd no-one has mentioned Wrath of Kenara... Moves 2, costs 10, shoots 7x3, holds 4 and allows 2 rechecks per combat round for a TG each, which Hacan can easily afford. I'd put that either just ahead or just behind the JNS Hylarim in the top 3 of the opening post.

0.0.1 looks incredibly powerful, but it is so expensive to get on-line and into position. Haven't seen Hil Colish do much yet, it is obviously powerful but it's hard to compare it to the others, as it fulfills a different role.
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Matthew Bestland
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Eu8L1ch wrote:

I think the others are pretty average; the weakest one is maybe the Inferno, considering Muaat can build WSs from the start.


I don't understand why people hate the Inferno. I mean, its definitely one of the lower ones, but its not the worst.

Now you can build a fleet with only strategy allocation, fighters, destroyers, and cruisers. The point is that Muatt can save their resources to build warsuns, and stall with something to show for it.

The biggest advantage the flagship is "supposed" to have is that its cheaper than a warsun. On the second turn when you have 10 resources at your disposal, you can build it as a makeshift warsun with a helpful ability. However, I say "supposed" because the difference between 10 and 12 is not that much. That's why the flagship is one of the lower ones, it would be good if the cost was 9, and great if it was 8.

I think the worst flagship is a tie between Winnu and Son of Ragh. For Winnu's flagship to be even comparable to other flagships on firepower alone (forget about special abilities) it would need to fight at least 4 ships. Good luck orchestrating that with one movement. Son of Ragh is a glorified (and expensive) destroyer for a race that would never buy cruisers cause they don't have the cash (okay, I'm exaggerating, but you get my point). Granted, the Clan have little anti-fighter capabilities besides having more fighters, so it would still be a useful investment if not for one thing, mobility. The whole point of the Clan is that they're mobility whores, so having got-dang flagship that moves 1 means its probably never going to be part of any offensive strike. Still, a glorified babysitter for your spacedocks would still keep the Ragh from being the worst flagship if not for the fact that you have to build it in your home system! It'll take forever to gather the resources (i.e. trade goods for the Clan), take forever to get anywhere its needed, and I have to defend/keep a spacedock in that piece of crud homesystem? No thank you. If I wanted to protect my space docks so badly, I'd just pick up Chaos mapping and high tail it to the nearest asteroid field.
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Brian Petersen
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I think they didn't default give the Winnu 2 movement since they're supposed to be able to grab Type IV Drives so quickly. It only takes 3 techs for them, and the designers probably figured out that giving them 3 movement cruiser & flagship fleet isn't a good thing.

Also, you don't have to keep an SD in your HS. You just have to move it there the turn/turn before you want to build it. I do agree that not having the tripe-dock system shatters your production capacity, so you may have just hired a babysitter while those darn clones, the Yin, come slaughter your children.
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