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Subject: 9-11: There was no conspiracy rss

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The Sept. 11 attack is approaching its 10 year anniversary. I've somehow missed up until now the "Truther" movement that believes the whole thing was a Bush conspiracy. I guess I never imagined human idiocy could descend so far.

Here are the facts:

Debunking the 9/11 Myths: Special Report - The World Trade Center (Popular Mechanics)
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/deb...
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tesuji wrote:
The Sept. 11 attack is approaching its 10 year anniversary. I've somehow missed up until now the "Truther" movement that believes the whole thing was a Bush conspiracy. I guess I never imagined human idiocy could descend so far.

Here are the facts:

Debunking the 9/11 Myths: Special Report - The World Trade Center (Popular Mechanics)
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/deb...


Of course if there is a conspiracy this could all be part of it. Rember they had a doible of Lee harvey oswald and forged Ohbamas both cirtificate. They (the commities of the 35 and a half) can do anything.
 
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slatersteven wrote:

Of course if there is a conspiracy this could all be part of it. Rember they had a doible of Lee harvey oswald and forged Ohbamas both cirtificate. They (the commities of the 35 and a half) can do anything.


Tesuji probably was a sock puppet account created in 2008 in preparation of the ten year anniversary so as to obfuscate any suspicions of conspiracy by eventually posting this counter-propaganda. Luckily we're too savvy for such heavy handed deception.

I'm prepared: http://zapatopi.net/afdb/
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First, I don't beleive the conspiracy... however I would not chalk up the belief to idiocy. The idea that our government puts human life, even of its own citizens, before any domestic or foreign policy agenda is absurd. We don't. So, that we would kill people on our own soil to create a new 'cold war' is not a difficult conclusion given our perverted history.

Osama (Tim Osman) was a CIA operative. That alone taints most minds, especially outside the USA. The idea that it was a CIA plot is pretty popular outside the USA. This interview with four Pakistanis one makes the claim that 98% of Pakistanis beleive this:




Some of these are simply historical, some came out of Freedom of Information requests... we learn more every year. Some examples of our atrocities in the 20th Century:

We used the nuclear bomb on civilian populations in Japan.

Our CIA traded cocaine for weapons and vice versa.

The largest crack cocaine operation in the USA was a CIA front... billions of dollars. When the operation was in full swing Ricky Donnell Ross, the CIA connection, claimed to have made $3million in one day selling crack on the streets of LA.

CIA hired prostitutes in San Fran and NYC to test LSD on unsuspecting Johns.

CIA hired prostitutes in Guatemala to infect Johns with syphilis.

The Tuskegee Syphilis Study let 200 black men, US citizens, die of syphilis.

The US military (never to be used on civilians, but this is one of many examples) was ordered to evict 10,000 people from a tent city consisting of veterans of WW1 made homeless after the war. Tanks, fixed bayonets and arsenic gas were used on the citizens. Infants died, the city burned to the ground.

Against their will 400 prisoners were infected with Malaria to test a military anti-malaria drug.

The list goes on... I could cite 1,000 examples.
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Here's my favorite one recently, CIA Gulfstream Jet N987SA crash from 2007.

 
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pronoblem wrote:
The idea that it was a CIA plot is pretty popular outside the USA. This interview with four Pakistanis one makes the claim that 98% of Pakistanis beleive this:


i was working with a group of singaporean civil engineers doing some pile testing back when it happened. they had conspiracy theories about it 24 hours after the WTC collapsed!! even i was shocked by that.

but it does not matter. most US folk will believe exactly what their govt tells them to when it comes to this sort of thing.
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Hell, this doesn't even get into the "Wait, what?" category of the 9/11 conspiracies running around. Go looking for the ones where the planes that "crashed" (but didn't actually all crash) all land at secret airfields where the actual passengers were unloaded, transferred to 93, and then the planes were actually remote piloted to their destruction (when missiles weren't used) and you start getting in to the real depths of things.

People don't like to believe that small groups/individuals can do many of the things that they can do in a society like ours where our freedoms actually expose us to risks from bad actors. And many have such distrust of government that any statements from the government are immediate cause for more than skepticism - they're cause to presume deception and misdirection. Thus, the lingering theories regarding Pearl Harbor, JFK, 9/11, Hoffa, etc.
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pronoblem wrote:


.....

Some of these are simply historical, some came out of Freedom of Information requests... we learn more every year. Some examples of our atrocities in the 20th Century:

We used the nuclear bomb on civilian populations in Japan.



What? When did this happen? I'm outraged!
 
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myopia wrote:
What? When did this happen? I'm outraged!


It was the lowest point in human history. Look it up.
 
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pronoblem wrote:
myopia wrote:
What? When did this happen? I'm outraged!


It was the lowest point in human history. Look it up.


Actually, the years 1939 through 1945 were, in total, the lowest point in human history. That mankind found itself in a situation where it required the deaths of 60 million men, women, and children in order to restore peace (if not justice) to the world is a black mark against our entire species. The atomic bombings were just the final awful crescendo to a six year running tragedy. There are no innocents in this play.
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As for 9/11, I do think it takes a certain delusional mind to think that the US government, or any part of it, is competent enough to pull off a conspiracy of any significant magnitude successfully. The US government, in general, has more leaks than a rusty sieve. It's laughable really to think that a government that couldn't find New Orleans on a map until a week after a hurricane hit it could mastermind a fake-terrorist strike on itself.
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Wow, what a foolproof disguise, that whole "government is incompetent" lie is....

of course, any cursory look at all the successful known government/military operations in history completely blows apart that "incompetent" disguise.

Much less the reality that there are government operations unknown to the general public.

I think anyone who pulls this "incompetent government" wool over their eyes is
a) incredibly naive
b) psychologically grasping at excuses in order to not face the more nuanced and scarier reality that the government does not play by the same rules and rationale as the general populace.

BTW - the OP's title is misleading, and impossible to determine.
The Popular Mechanics article in no way address all of the ways the US could have been involved in the 9/11 events, and ignores all the ways in which 9/11 WAS USED to forward US interests worldwide.
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reapersaurus wrote:
Wow, what a foolproof disguise, that whole "government is incompetent" lie is....


Ummmmm. About 99% of the stuff out debunking Truther arguments has zero to do with the competence of government and everything to do with "no, you don't have that quite right." Or "no, explosives weren't actually required." Or "yes, it really was possible for a commercial airliner to do the damage pictures reflect."

Indeed, government incompetence is at the root of many of the things that allowed 9/11 to occur, which some of our better politicians recognized required changes to laws regarding sharing information between intelligence agencies. For example - the CIA had operatives that knew key hijackers were in the US but who were prevented from sharing that information either by higher-ups who didn't want to share and had the power to prevent it or due to legal restrictions that limited the use of intelligence due to the rights that we recognize. In other cases, the connections should have been made and weren't between data that a single agency had on hand.

And regardless of what you may think about the US government, it's ludicrous to suggest that the literally thousands of people that would have had to be involved in the 9/11 plot to plan, execute, and cover-up would have both gone along in the first place and/or would have kept quiet for a decade. It's more than a bit insulting to the members of our armed forces, intelligence services, law enforcement bodies, and politicians to suggest that they would have sufficient individuals so lacking in ethics as to make 9/11 possible.

Yeah, the US government has had its horrible moments (all governments do). But they inevitably see the light of day, particularly when the body count rises. The "more nuanced and scarier reality" is that the government is far more likely to make mistakes of dramatic proportions that allow a 9/11 to happen despite the evidence that it could occur. No grand conspiracy required - it's the nature of a free society that we expose ourselves to these sorts of risks.
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The great thing about conspiracy theories is that evidence that would prove the conspiracy proves the conspiracy...

...and the lack of evidence that would prove the conspiracy also proves the conspiracy...

...and evidence that disproves the conspiracy also proves the conspiracy.
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Golux13 wrote:
The great thing about conspiracy theories is that evidence that would prove the conspiracy proves the conspiracy...

...and the lack of evidence that would prove the conspiracy also proves the conspiracy...

...and evidence that disproves the conspiracy also proves the conspiracy.


The fact that you posted this proves the conspiracy.
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pronoblem wrote:
myopia wrote:
What? When did this happen? I'm outraged!

It was the lowest point in human history. Look it up.

I disagree, as the nuclear bombing of Japan only accounted for about 2% of the damage. I don't want to propose a lowest point, though I'll tentatively suggest the total destruction of Carthage. I suggest you look at the March 1944 firebombing of Tokyo. Some historians estimate (IIRC) that the death toll was 300,000, triple the Wikipedia number. In any case, the firebombing was designed to make use of traditional civilian home construction, made of wood and paper, in order to deliberately create a firestorm. Delay fuse bombs were seeded into the drops to kill firefighters. Civilians in shelters were baked alive; civilians in rivers were boiled alive. To this day, a gate of the Imperial Palace has a burn scar from this attack--the Japanese wisely decided not to repair the scar.

I say this by way of keeping the historical record correct. I am not assessing blame. WWII was a no-holds-barred, genocidal war, whether you were Goebbels, Tojo, "Bomber" Harris, or Curtis LeMay.

Maybe the "take-away" from this is that (near-)psychotics have a place in society: to act when other societies activate their psychotics. (Outside of those conditions, I'm all for keeping them chained in cages.)
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*Peeking into thread, seeing if it has turned into the cataclysmically ugly topic of "My pet tragedy is worse than YOUR pet tragedy"*

Good. Nothing to see here.

Moving on.

Darilian
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pronoblem wrote:
myopia wrote:
What? When did this happen? I'm outraged!


It was the lowest point in human history. Look it up.


The Povolzhye Famine of 1921, the collectivization of the USSR, the Great Purge of 1937-38, the Final Solution, Great Leap Forward & Cultural Revolution, Europe's colonial treatment of Africa, US's treatment of the Indians, the Mongols, The Tartars, the Romans, the Egyptians, almost everyone before the Egyptians, the world slave trade and on and on and on.....

You must not know much history if you think two little nukes were the lowest point in human history.

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Quote:
Much less the reality that there are government operations unknown to the general public.


I believe our government has been and is involved in some "conspiracies." As in, things we're not aware of that may or may not be in the favor of the general public were we to find out about them. But 9-11 is not one of them. There is an absolute mountain of evidence and testimony that shows that it was an al Qaeda operation. Some people want to see it as something different, and in that case, they'll see what they want, but you really have to twist things incomprehensibly to make it fit into that kind of picture frame.

Same thing with JFK... From everything I've read about it (which is a lot, actually), I now accept to my complete satisfaction that Lee Harvey Oswald did it. I was firmly in the conspiracy camp there for a long time until I went to the library one day to find more books about it and they were all taken out (this was during the Oliver Stone movie time), except for the one book that claimed to show that Oswald did it...

Nobody wanted to read that book.

But I begrudgingly took it out and read it. That book was so much more convincing and factual and made so much absolute sense (and that book was from the 70's... Vincent Bugliosi's more recent "Reclaiming History" book is 10 times more comprehensive). I wasn't even willing to consider that possibility for a long time, though. The conspiracies were so much more compelling and I wanted them to be true for the sake of the intrigue and the fascination with the unknown or whatever, and so I saw all kinds of other possibilities there. But again, the mountain of actual evidence overwhelmingly points to Oswald, and the possibility of a massive coordinated effort for how to have arranged that otherwise is so preposterous as to be laughable. A lone nut shooting the President from a book warehouse isn't nearly as entertaining as the massive conspiracy angles, but it is what it is.

Oh, and O.J. did it, too. No conspiracy there. Not even close. shake
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pronoblem wrote:
The US military (never to be used on civilians, but this is one of many examples) was ordered to evict 10,000 people from a tent city consisting of veterans of WW1 made homeless after the war. Tanks, fixed bayonets and arsenic gas were used on the citizens. Infants died, the city burned to the ground.

Against their will 400 prisoners were infected with Malaria to test a military anti-malaria drug.

The list goes on... I could cite 1,000 examples.


Could you cite some citations for these last two? I've never heard of them before.
 
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neoshmengi wrote:
Could you cite some citations for these last two? I've never heard of them before.


See, this is exactly what I am talking about... people have no clue of what has happened.

The first story involves players that I am sure you know their names... George S. Patton (then only a Major) and Gen. Douglas MacArthur. I am sure you heard those names before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army

The Malaria studies (1940) are historically significant because the Nazi's at the Nuremberg trial used these as part of their defense when accused of doing medical tests on their prisoners. "The USA can do it and it is OK by international law???",

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stateville_Penitentiary_Malaria...

Sure, I link to wikipedia... may not be all details, but this is RSP. If it is on wiki it is true, right? Of course, do your own research...

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With regard to the hit at the Pentagon - if we're to believe the official story of an airliner hitting it, where are the engines from the plane? They're nowhere in the images I've seen. Multi-ton steel engines don't simply disappear.

And why did authorities confiscate and then never reveal all the surveillance videos from the businesses in the vicinity that captured the hit?

I too don't necessarily buy into this being a conspiracy but I certainly can't rule it out, either.
 
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pdoherty wrote:
With regard to the hit at the Pentagon - if we're to believe the official story of an airliner hitting it, where are the engines from the plane? They're nowhere in the images I've seen. Multi-ton steel engines don't simply disappear.

And why did authorities confiscate and then never reveal all the surveillance videos from the businesses in the vicinity that captured the hit?

I too don't necessarily buy into this being a conspiracy but I certainly can't rule it out, either.


When a jet plane with a 1/8" thick aluminum skin strikes a reinforced concrete building with a granite block exterior at 600 mph, there will be almost nothing left of the plane larger than a foot or two in diameter, and most parts will be much, much smaller. But, here, in this link, you will see part of the compressor from one of the engines of Flight 77 found within the Pentagon...

http://www.rense.com/general32/phot.htm

photo of engine compressor diffusor section (note ring structure, bottom right of photo):



Detail:



So, can we please just STOP with the inane conspiracy crap and ridiculous questions? Please? Thanks.

BTW - jetliners are made mostly of aluminum, not steel, and aluminum has a habit of melting away when exposed to high temperatures, such as fires fueled by burning jet fuel. This is another reason why very little debris remained in recognizable form. In fact, if you look at the other photos from the crash site, it's only the engine components and landing gear elements, which are made of steel, that are clearly recognizable at all.
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bobby_5150 wrote:
You must not know much history if you think two little nukes were the lowest point in human history.


I know my history well, better than you do that is for certain. It is not the number of deaths... it is the unleashing. Get it? That changed the world. A doomsday device, ultimate destruction. We as a nation continue to improve our arsenal. We now kill people from a joystick and a remote viewing screen. We have laser weapons, rail guns, billion dollar fighters, million per second round guns, flying warships... bit nothing compared to the nuclear bomb. The world has enough of these things to kill every living thing and cause a winter that will last a century. The low point was deciding to use it... we could go lower, of course, that would be using it again. Of course, we still maintain them. No wonder the world wants to reject us.
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As far as 9-11... those buildings were ugly anyhow. Who cares...
 
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