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Merchant of Venus» Forums » Rules

Subject: Selling Ship at Endgame rss

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Fel Barros
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Can I barter my ship to buy a spaceport and have no ship if that wins me the game?

We had a situation where I had 1700, I bartered a freighter and a combo driver for two spaceports (paying 100 for the difference) and netting me exactly the ammount I needed to win.

 
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Tim Seitz
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If you were at a spaceport or had stayed on the planet so you could buy/sell multiple times, then it sure seems reasonable, although maybe a little cheeky.
 
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J Bernardo
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I don't see why not.
 
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Mark Llewellyn
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I think you must be in possesion of at least 1 ship at all times. You could sell a more expensive ship to buy a cheaper ship netting the difference.
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Tyler McLaughlin
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I'm pretty sure you don't get change on barters.

 
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Mark Llewellyn
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e.e.goings wrote:
I'm pretty sure you don't get change on barters.



True, with a surface city you only get to barter 1 item, but at a Spaceport you can sell or barter any number of items. Thus to make money from this you would need to carry it out at your spaceport as the Bank pays the owner of the Spaceport 10% of the value of each item that is bartered, bought or sold.
 
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Richard Irving
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Just a note--everyone above me answered this question wrong or wasn't sure of the answer. If you don't know the answer, please refrain from responding. Thank You.

NO--You must ALWAYS have a ship--even at the end of the game.

You CAN barter say a Freighter to Scout and make a net $90 ($150 trade in value for the freighter, $60 purchase price of the scout), but there is a catch, you cannot take change when you barter a good--it has to be converted into goods, equipment, ships or (most importantly) deeds.

Actually a second catch, because you have this at a system that sells red ships.

So what the original poster has a good idea (and actually correctly bought deeds to monetize the trade in value of the bartered ship & drive), but he would be without a ship and have to buy one.

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Tim Seitz
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Richard, do you have an explicit rule reference for requiring a ship to win? As I read the rules, it says nothing about a requirement to have a ship to win the game. I interpret Rule 3.4 as limiting multiple ships, and rules 13.1 and 13.2 don't mention any other requirements to win.

As MoV tourney master, you're probably as good an authority as any now, but I need something better for my rules lawyer than "Richard said so."

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Fel Barros
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And it was a very interesting situation, because I was in 4a (Dell which only sells transport and freighters) I ended up with 2.1k but I could only have bought a transport which would have me 30 grant short of winning.

We printed recently Dathkadan version of the game and we're still making a lot of mistakes

Thank you for so many fast replies.
 
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out4blood wrote:
As MoV tourney master, you're probably as good an authority as any now, but I need something better for my rules lawyer than "Richard said so."



Richard said so using capital letters?
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Filipe Cunha
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rri1 wrote:
Just a note--everyone above me answered this question wrong or wasn't sure of the answer. If you don't know the answer, please refrain from responding. Thank You.

NO--You must ALWAYS have a ship--even at the end of the game.

You CAN barter say a Freighter to Scout and make a net $90 ($150 trade in value for the freighter, $60 purchase price of the scout), but there is a catch, you cannot take change when you barter a good--it has to be converted into goods, equipment, ships or (most importantly) deeds.

Actually a second catch, because you have this at a system that sells red ships.

So what the original poster has a good idea (and actually correctly bought deeds to monetize the trade in value of the bartered ship & drive), but he would be without a ship and have to buy one.


Yea, but Richard, even yours is a "guess", since you're the wrong Richard
Anyway, I agree that it's against the spirit of the game to be without a ship since when you win the game, theoretically, you become just as famous as the legendary Merchant of Venus (and don't quit being a merchant). If, on the other hand, you retired it would be plausible, but it's not the case.
But, at the same time, the rules doesn't state anywhere that you NEED to have a ship at all times.
For example, you could barter your ship to buy a spaceport (therefore, using your 1 buy and 1 sell for the turn) and on the following turn, skip your movement to buy some goods and a new ship.
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Scott McNulty
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When you barter, you don't get the cash. Therefore you cannot win using this strategy. You get the value to use as if it were cash but no actual money.

To quote the original rules:
9.32 bartering. When a player barters a ship, Equipment, or IOU to a Culture, he can use the item's trade-in value to buy things from that culture. He can spend the trade-in value as if it were money, but he can spend it only on the turn he barters the item...

So you see, since barter isn't part of Money but only spendable value then it cannot count toward the game total. Like having a gift certificate from a store. You aren't selling the ship, you are getting a trade-in.

I believe the maker of the game had this very situation in mind and I'll bet it came up during playtest.

And in the Quick Play instructions from the original:
5.0 A player can never own more or less than one ship...

And as several people have pointed out; nor should it be allowed, or the game wouldn't be as good.

 
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Dan The Man
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ScottM2k wrote:
When you barter, you don't get the cash. Therefore you cannot win using this strategy. You get the value to use as if it were cash but no actual money.

Scott, you are wrong. I apologize in advance for being so abrupt...

Cash money, as has been pointed out more than once in this thread, is not the only valued item that counts toward victory. Deeds, whether to a factory or a spaceport, can be bartered for, and count toward your victory condition. SO, one can trade in a more valuable ship for a less valuable one and use the difference in values to partially pay for a deed (assuming appropriate ships and deeds are available at the port, of course), said deed counting toward the victory condition.
 
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Scott McNulty
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DnaDan56 wrote:
ScottM2k wrote:
When you barter, you don't get the cash. Therefore you cannot win using this strategy. You get the value to use as if it were cash but no actual money.

Scott, you are wrong. I apologize in advance for being so abrupt...

Cash money, as has been pointed out more than once in this thread, is not the only valued item that counts toward victory. Deeds, whether to a factory or a spaceport, can be bartered for, and count toward your victory condition. SO, one can trade in a more valuable ship for a less valuable one and use the difference in values to partially pay for a deed (assuming appropriate ships and deeds are available at the port, of course), said deed counting toward the victory condition.


Very special case, but yes, if you can find a deed at that final moment of game you can do just what you say. You cannot just use the value straight up, though, and I hope you agree with that.

Most of the time, this would be moot for me. You wouldn't win because of circumstances not by prevention of the rules.

With the people I play with; if you run off to get a deed that isn't in one of the main paths of cash flow you will almost certainly lose. A lot of times, there aren't any deeds left at game end anyway. I play with some real sharks. We usually play to $4000 or a time limit.

The following variant seems intriguing to me:
1. all equipment counts at full value, not barter value
2. all relics count at full value as well
3. All goods count as sale value without demands.
4. Raise the final value required to win to 4000 (or maybe even 5000).

I'll have to suggest this to my group and see if they are interested.

I just realized, we've played it on average about 4 times a year since the game came out in 1988. That's close to a hundred rounds. How startling. We're on our third set.

I'll be a happy camper when the publishers get their legal tangle done and I can get the new version.
 
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David "Davy" Ashleydale
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The one clue that I see in the game that you can't barter your ship away without getting another one in return, is that on the ship cards themselves, they have a Cost and a "Trade-in" value. The term "trade-in" is often used in car sales -- you might get a trade-in value for your old car in order to purchase a new car. I've never heard of anyone using the trade-in value of their car to purchase anything other than a different car.

The term "trade-in" isn't used anywhere else in Merchant of Venus. Even though you can barter your Yellow Drive away for the exact same deal -- half of its purchase price -- they don't call it "trade-in".

So, to me, that implies that bartering your ship away is different than bartering other goods away.
 
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Tim Seitz
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randomlife wrote:
The one clue that I see in the game that you can't barter your ship away without getting another one in return, is that on the ship cards themselves, they have a Cost and a "Trade-in" value. The term "trade-in" is often used in car sales -- you might get a trade-in value for your old car in order to purchase a new car. I've never heard of anyone using the trade-in value of their car to purchase anything other than a different car.

The term "trade-in" isn't used anywhere else in Merchant of Venus. Even though you can barter your Yellow Drive away for the exact same deal -- half of its purchase price -- they don't call it "trade-in".

Yes they do, rule 9.32 "Bartering"

Quote:
When a player barters a ship, Equipment, or IOU to a culture, he can use the item's trade-in value to buy things from that Culture. He can spend the trade-in value as if it were money, but he can spend it only on the turn he barters the item; at the the end of the turn he loses any part of the trade-in value that remains unspent. Each ship and IOU lists its barter value. The barter value of the Equipment is equal to half of the cost printed on the marker.

This rule uses the terms "trade-in value" and "barter value" interchangeably.
 
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