Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
20 Posts

The Resistance» Forums » Rules

Subject: "Strong Leader" rules clarification rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Steven Metzger
United States
Knoxville
Tennessee
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
tl;dr version: In the 1st edition, can "Strong Leader" be played after a vote is cast, effectively being a stronger-than-average "No Confidence" card? Up until last night we've been playing it that way, then re-read the rules and re-interpreted the card (we also played a lot of 2nd edition and I playtested, so I think the most up-to-date ruling is more important for us).

---

Long version: In our group, we tend to play a good number of games, and abort the game if/when the spies can prove their victory - usually on the third mission they have sabotaged. SOMETIMES, however, a spy will prove a disorganization victory (5 failed votes) using the No Confidence and Strong Leader cards and revealing their whole team, walking through the 5 votes needed, and declaring victory outside of the normal bounds of the game (we'd rather spend 5 minutes playing Round 1 of the next game than running through procedure).

Well, last night we reread the rules on Strong Leader, and I think we were playing it wrong before (like a No Confidence where you take the leader card away after). So in game 2 we re-interpreted the card's text to remove it's previously-established-and-now-assumed-void No Confidence effect.

Game 4 of the night was a repeat of Game 2, with three of the four strongest players on the spy team - when this happens, it is NOT easy to win. I played the longest con and threw my two teammates under the bus fairly quickly, but utilizing other cards tried to utterly confuse the other strongest player (not going to work, I think he might be the best of the bunch) and maybe convince the new player to support my Mission 5 team.

By the time Round 5 rolled around, I was the leader and was looking for a way to end it. After about 10 minutes of discussion to try and get myself on the mission team, my fellow spy claimed a procedural (cards) victory, where he and I pick bad teams (2 fails), we no-confidence two resistance players in a row, and Strong Leader the fifth. However, if Strong Leader is interpreted a certain way, the game's actual final result changes significantly.

Before we even got to the rules errata bickering that I knew might cause bad feelings, I shushed everyone and said "Okay, the game is over...but we don't know who won." We all agreed that arguments over rule interpretations would hurt more than help anything, and decided that this needed to be brought to BGG for a final ruling.

---

Last night's fourth game is currently considered a TIE by our group, pending the consensus of this thread.

Spies win if the "Strong Leader" card can be used like a No Confidence card (mid-turn).
Resistance wins if the "Strong Leader" card cannot be played after a round has begun (plot cards drawn).

Help!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Travis Worthington
United States
California
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
2010 Releases ........................................ The Resistance, Haggis & Triumvirate ..................................... Now accepting submissions for 2011 releases ........................................ www.IndieBoardsandCards.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The card text has been consistent - Strong Leader must be played before Plot Cards or Team Cards have been distributed.

You can't vote until the team cards have been distributed (ie, the team cards determine who is suggested by the leader as the mission team). So you couldn't use the Strong Leader card after a vote.
10 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chad Miller
United States
Stigler
Oklahoma
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
(not going to work, I think he might be the best of the bunch)


I will accept this title only because your crazy awesome spy girlfriend wasn't there this time.

So, I'm not completely sure the issue was resolved here. We've established now that you can't wait for a team to get voted on, then Strong Leader to preempt it. That's not the problem. The problem is: Spy is the leader and has Strong Leader, lets a vote or two fail, then retakes leader in the same turn. On the one hand, "Play before plot cards are distributed" implies that Strong Leader can only preempt the first leader in a turn because later leaders don't get plot cards, but the FAQ in the rulebook implies that it is possible to have Strong Leader, then vote, then Strong Leader again which contradicts that interpretation.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Travis Worthington
United States
California
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
2010 Releases ........................................ The Resistance, Haggis & Triumvirate ..................................... Now accepting submissions for 2011 releases ........................................ www.IndieBoardsandCards.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
".... or team cards distributed"

You can't do what you described.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam H
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
I think you can use Strong Leader at any time as long as the mission proposal has not been accepted.

I haven't noticed the "Play before plot cards are distributed", though. If that's actually in the rules, it seems pretty clear that I've been playing it wrong...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul W
United States
Eugene
Oregon
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
Yeah, it's pretty clear from the card text that you can't use it as a veto, because the vote is after team cards have been distributed.

One question our group has wondered about (it hasn't been an issue, but we were wondering) is whether you can use Strong Leader after the plot cards have been given out but before the first leader has distributed team cards. Also, how do you resolve multiple people wanting to play strong leader?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Weier
United States
Huntsville
Alabama
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
SlebRittie wrote:
On the one hand, "Play before plot cards are distributed" implies that Strong Leader can only preempt the first leader in a turn because later leaders don't get plot cards, but the FAQ in the rulebook implies that it is possible to have Strong Leader, then vote, then Strong Leader again which contradicts that interpretation.


This is my interpretation and how our group plays it:

Plot cards are only distributed once per turn by the first leader. In order to Strong Leader the first leader in a turn, it must be done before plots are given out. If a vote fails or is nulled and a new leader is chosen, Strong Leader can still be played on the next leader, but must be done before the nomination cards are given out (don't worry about the plot card detail in this case, since there are none to give out, which is why nomination cards are also specified as a condition).

I think procedurally your spies would still have it. The two spy leaders pick teams with spies that either fail a vote or pass and spies win. If it gets to third and fourth votes, it sounds like two of your spies had No Confidence so they could force those to fail. On the fifth vote, before the leader hands out nomination cards, if a spy plays Strong Leader, then he takes leadership and chooses a team with a spy on it that either fails for a spy win or passes and spies win anyway. The only thing that would prevent the spies from winning is if any resistance players also had a Strong Leader and could take leadership away from the spy who would play Strong Leader before that fifth vote.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Cheng
Taiwan
Taipei City
n/a
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
fizzmore wrote:
Yeah, it's pretty clear from the card text that you can't use it as a veto, because the vote is after team cards have been distributed.

One question our group has wondered about (it hasn't been an issue, but we were wondering) is whether you can use Strong Leader after the plot cards have been given out but before the first leader has distributed team cards. Also, how do you resolve multiple people wanting to play strong leader?


1. No.
2. Once someone "strong lead" a lead, the other strong leader can't play. That means you can't take away the lead a second time in the same turn.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chad Miller
United States
Stigler
Oklahoma
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
SlebRittie wrote:
The problem is: Spy is the leader and has Strong Leader, lets a vote or two fail, then retakes leader in the same turn.


T Worthington wrote:
".... or team cards distributed"

You can't do what you described.


So, I'm looking at the rulesheet for the plot cards and it says:

Strong Leader: ...When a "Strong Leader" is played, another "Strong Leader may not be played until a Vote has been taken.

So am I to understand that "Vote, Strong Leader" is not allowed, but "Strong Leader, Vote, Strong Leader" is? That seems staggeringly arbitrary and not at all justified by the printed rules or cards. Unless the rulesheet is outright mistaken, which would be something to correct in future printings...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clyde W
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
flag msg tools
Red Team
badge
#YOLO
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't see why you can't play two Strong Leader cards in a row. If a spy plays one, and I have another, I will definitely be playing it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Cheng
Taiwan
Taipei City
n/a
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
SlebRittie wrote:
SlebRittie wrote:
The problem is: Spy is the leader and has Strong Leader, lets a vote or two fail, then retakes leader in the same turn.


T Worthington wrote:
".... or team cards distributed"

You can't do what you described.


So, I'm looking at the rulesheet for the plot cards and it says:

Strong Leader: ...When a "Strong Leader" is played, another "Strong Leader may not be played until a Vote has been taken.

So am I to understand that "Vote, Strong Leader" is not allowed, but "Strong Leader, Vote, Strong Leader" is? That seems staggeringly arbitrary and not at all justified by the printed rules or cards. Unless the rulesheet is outright mistaken, which would be something to correct in future printings...


This just mean that you can't strong lead another strong lead. You can only SL before the current leader do anything. So the first SL became the lead, assign team cards, goes to vote. Whether the votes pass (which would then proceed to mission) or fail (would then change leader), only after the leader change, you can use the other SL.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chad Miller
United States
Stigler
Oklahoma
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
James, you've completely missed the point. I know that's what the rulebook indicates. I'm saying it completely conflicts with what the designer is saying in this very thread, and possibly also with the printed wording of the card.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Travis Worthington
United States
California
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
2010 Releases ........................................ The Resistance, Haggis & Triumvirate ..................................... Now accepting submissions for 2011 releases ........................................ www.IndieBoardsandCards.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
SlebRittie wrote:
James, you've completely missed the point. I know that's what the rulebook indicates. I'm saying it completely conflicts with what the designer is saying in this very thread, and possibly also with the printed wording of the card.


No, what James has said is exactly what I have said, and what the rulebook says.

Note - I did not design The Resistance, that honor goes to Don Eskridge. I did design the Plot cards as part of the development cycle.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Travis Worthington
United States
California
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
2010 Releases ........................................ The Resistance, Haggis & Triumvirate ..................................... Now accepting submissions for 2011 releases ........................................ www.IndieBoardsandCards.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Chad - looking back through the thread, I can't find what your question is.

Strong Leader can be played only as leadership passes. It can not be played after the leader has taken any actions as leader - either distributed plot cards or proposed a mission team. Strong leader may be played immediately after a mission, or immediately after a failed proposal, with the caveats stated in the previous sentence. Only one strong leader may be played per mission proposal.

Usually we hold the game briefly between rounds when strong leader cards are out, asking if any are going to be played prior to passing leadership. In the case that multiple strong leader cards are in play, we start with the player to the left of the person that will become leader, and resolve in clockwise order if they will play their strong leader card. If no one plays a strong leader card then leadership passes and play proceeds.

Your group is welcome ot play however you would like, the above is the intention of the rules as conceived and written.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chad Miller
United States
Stigler
Oklahoma
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Travis, then I'm guessing you've misunderstood the scenario I laid out:

-Player 1 starts as leader
-Vote happens and fails
-Player 2 becomes leader
-Vote happens and fails
-Player 1 now uses Strong Leader to become leader again

I think part of the confusion is that Steve implied that people are interrupting votes with it, which is not the case here. Player 1 is not interrupting a vote, he's just letting some votes happen and then using his Strong Leader card to put the turn order back on the very people that just proposed fail teams. Is this allowed or not?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clyde W
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
flag msg tools
Red Team
badge
#YOLO
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yes, it's allowed. Travis said it himself, anytime the leader card passes you may use this card. That's the only time it's allowed. I didn't know you couldn't play two Strong Leaders in a row (that's in the rules?) but other than that, it's pretty straightforward. It's the "No Confidence" card, that passes the leader card to the left, that can be played at any time.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chad Miller
United States
Stigler
Oklahoma
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
Travis said it himself, anytime the leader card passes you may use this card.


Except where he explicitly said it wasn't allowed, in response to my first post, which is why I'm so persistently seeking clarification. Sorry to be a broken record but it did come up again and I predict a near 100% chance that it's going to happen again tonight.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Travis Worthington
United States
California
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
2010 Releases ........................................ The Resistance, Haggis & Triumvirate ..................................... Now accepting submissions for 2011 releases ........................................ www.IndieBoardsandCards.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
SlebRittie wrote:
:

-Player 1 starts as leader
-Vote happens and fails
-Player 2 becomes leader
-Vote happens and fails
-Player 1 now uses Strong Leader to become leader again



This is a valid use of the Strong Leader card
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clyde W
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
flag msg tools
Red Team
badge
#YOLO
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
SlebRittie wrote:
Quote:
Travis said it himself, anytime the leader card passes you may use this card.


Except where he explicitly said it wasn't allowed, in response to my first post, which is why I'm so persistently seeking clarification. Sorry to be a broken record but it did come up again and I predict a near 100% chance that it's going to happen again tonight.
I guess I'm still confused then. Where's the ambiguity?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chad Miller
United States
Stigler
Oklahoma
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The ambiguity comes from me having initially asked about that same scenario and being given the opposite answer due to a misunderstanding. It's been cleared up now.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.