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Subject: Pros and Cons of Quarriors rss

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Jamie Pollock
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Pros:
It definitely is fun to play.

It's definitely quick too. Playing best of 3 or 5 is the way to go and that quick turnaround figures well with the high degree of luck involved.

Most of the creatures and spells have fun abilities.

Cons:
Dragons are overpowered, period. In particular I'd love to hear what the designers had in mind when they thought up the "Strong" version, which means your creatures can't be attacked by all opponent creatures that are level 2 and below. Not only is this fairly boring to play against, but it covers pretty much every creature in the game barring another Dragon...

Too many high defence creatures vs high attack. In other words, getting that Questing Wizard or Defender of the Pale out means it's going to score.

Questionable culling rules. Yes, it's probably the case that the dice rolling itself nullifies any real significance of this from game to game, however there's definitely some question marks over whether this was the right route to take. The "versatile assistant" variant that someone posted here appears to have some merit, as does the official suggested variant involving culling the creatures as they score. The latter does somewhat devalue the "deck building" aspect of Quarriors, though it does increase the significance of spells and portals.

Much to learn and much to test.
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Kiren Maelwulf
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I used to think Dragons were overpowered as well. Now with 40ish plays under my belt, a mix of 2 and 4 player games I have come to realize they really are not all that big of a deal. In fact most games they rarely hit the table in a game changing way. Not to say they are not good or that I wouldn't buy them if I can afford them. But overall their cost is high enough that it is not reached on the average dice roll, especially early on. The creature system is quite clever too in that if you do get that dragon and get it out after it scores it goes to the discard and you are back to square one as are the other players.

I have found zero issue with the Questing Wizard either as the cost is significant. I would actually say if there is one creature I would even begin to think is too powerful for it's cost it would be the Defender of the Pale, far more so than the Dragon. The Defender is fairly attainable on the mid-range quiddity roll and not only has a high enough defense to withstand multiple attacks alone but also tend to have really solid abilities that are easy to activate (or passive). I don't consider Defenders game breaking but they are in my view the best cost:value ratio in the entire game.

Not sure what to say about culling. I have not noticed even a slight issue with the current base rules. In fact they seem ideal in relation to the games flow. Prehaps the people that find problems with it are simply master cullers and utalize the mechanic in ways I can not fathom and thusly have found issues I can not see.
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Christine Biancheria
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I don't know. I played a few games last night, and we had one with the dragon that could only be beaten by level 3 creatures. One guy got a lucky roll right off the bat and got to buy one of them. We didn't have any of the killer spells in play, and there didn't seem to be much we could do against it, and the guy with the early dragon buy ran away with it handily. So I do think it's overpowered unless it comes up with the right spell combination.

The game is fun and generally plays pretty well, without tremendous balance issues, but I think it CAN have balance issues.
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Kiren Maelwulf
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Christine Biancheria wrote:
I don't know. I played a few games last night, and we had one with the dragon that could only be beaten by level 3 creatures. One guy got a lucky roll right off the bat and got to buy one of them. We didn't have any of the killer spells in play, and there didn't seem to be much we could do against it, and the guy with the early dragon buy ran away with it handily. So I do think it's overpowered unless it comes up with the right spell combination.

The game is fun and generally plays pretty well, without tremendous balance issues, but I think it CAN have balance issues.


That assumes some is able to buy it early, get it out often, and have opponents without access to spells or other creatures that can deal with it. I completely agree Dragons are powerful, I just don't agree they are overpowered in the overall scheme of Quarriors.
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Jambo wrote:

Cons:
Dragons are overpowered, period. In particular I'd love to hear what the designers had in mind when they thought up the "Strong" version, which means your creatures can't be attacked by all opponent creatures that are level 2 and below. Not only is this fairly boring to play against, but it covers pretty much every creature in the game barring another Dragon...


I really don't see the big deal with Dragons. You only have a slightly greater than 50% chance of it coming up a dragon even if you pull the die out of the bag. You are only scoring it once right? You get your 4 glory but then it goes straight into the discard group. You don't have the chance of pulling it again until the next reshuffle.
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Jamie Pollock
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Kirenx wrote:


That assumes some is able to buy it early, get it out often, and have opponents without access to spells or other creatures that can deal with it. I completely agree Dragons are powerful, I just don't agree they are overpowered in the overall scheme of Quarriors.


But isn't it case that dragons are mostly bought early, with a good roll of your quiddity dice before they've been culled? Once you've started buying creatures, spells and begun culling, the chances to roll high goes down.

Also, it's particularly the strong dragon that grates me.

Edit: typo
 
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Jamie Pollock
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I guess the other thing I should have added as a con is:

Assistants. That early roll of more than one assistant is typically a game changer, at least in 2-player. If they all score that's 3 early points and 3 culls which really is a massive leap forward if the other player cannot match it soon.

Nevertheless there is a part of me which acknowledges that Quarriors is a heavy luck game anyway and attempting to 'fix' it or balance it is kind of futile.
 
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Jamie Shepherd
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Jambo wrote:
Nevertheless there is a part of me which acknowledges that Quarriors is a heavy luck game anyway and attempting to 'fix' it or balance it is kind of futile.


I tried to make a few suggestions on how to change culling and was basically told I was worse than Hitler.
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Kiren Maelwulf
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Jambo wrote:
Kirenx wrote:


That assumes some is able to buy it early, get it out often, and have opponents without access to spells or other creatures that can deal with it. I completely agree Dragons are powerful, I just don't agree they are overpowered in the overall scheme of Quarriors.


But isn't it case that dragons are mostly bought early, with a good roll of your quiddity dice because they've been culled? Once you've started buying creatures, spells and begun culling, the chances to roll high goes down.

Also, it's particularly the strong dragon that grates me.


How are you getting all this quiddity through culling? I guess if you manage to cull out all your assistants early you would have nothing but basic quiddity and a higher chance of rolling enough to purchase a dragon. But aside from the fact that would be hard to achieve you would then be stuck with a Dragon and nothing but basic quiddity. It seems unlikely in any case you will be culling 2+ dice each turn.
 
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Kiren Maelwulf
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Jambo wrote:
I guess the other thing I should have added as a con is:

Assistants. That early roll of more than one assistant is typically a game changer, at least in 2-player. If they all score that's 3 early points and 3 culls which really is a massive leap forward if the other player cannot match it soon.

Nevertheless there is a part of me which acknowledges that Quarriors is a heavy luck game anyway and attempting to 'fix' it or balance it is kind of futile.


This is definitely something far more noticable in two player than 3+. I find the game simply seems to play better with 3+ players, but I wouldn't say 2 is down right horrible.
 
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Jamie Pollock
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Kirenx wrote:
Jambo wrote:
Kirenx wrote:


That assumes some is able to buy it early, get it out often, and have opponents without access to spells or other creatures that can deal with it. I completely agree Dragons are powerful, I just don't agree they are overpowered in the overall scheme of Quarriors.


But isn't it case that dragons are mostly bought early, with a good roll of your quiddity dice because they've been culled? Once you've started buying creatures, spells and begun culling, the chances to roll high goes down.

Also, it's particularly the strong dragon that grates me.


How are you getting all this quiddity through culling? I guess if you manage to cull out all your assistants early you would have nothing but basic quiddity and a higher chance of rolling enough to purchase a dragon. But aside from the fact that would be hard to achieve you would then be stuck with a Dragon and nothing but basic quiddity. It seems unlikely in any case you will be culling 2+ dice each turn.


Sorry typo. Because should be before.
 
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Sebastian Grawan
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WiltChamberlain wrote:
Jambo wrote:
Nevertheless there is a part of me which acknowledges that Quarriors is a heavy luck game anyway and attempting to 'fix' it or balance it is kind of futile.


I tried to make a few suggestions on how to change culling and was basically told I was worse than Hitler.
Don't get discouraged by such things, some people love to read about rule suggestions and variants. Keep your cool and be safe.
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Christine Biancheria
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Yeah, but this guy got it right away, so it came up basically every other turn, and with the re-roll symbol, he seemed to get it easily. A greater than 50 percent chance is a lot.

We even made him start over because of a minor dice discrepancy in his bag, and he rolled the 8 quiddity again and got the thing on turn on anyway. There was just no keeping up with him.
 
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Oh ok. I agree that there was probably not much you could do about it if his dice were really "hot".

I find that games with lots of chaos can be very entertaining and exciting. However, there is a price to pay and that is that sometimes you will get a dud game where someone has outrageous good or bad luck. Rather than be frustrated, we just shrug and set up the game again. After all, what is the alternative - Chess? No thanks I'd rather watch paint dry.
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Kiren Maelwulf
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capadotia wrote:
Oh ok. I agree that there was probably not much you could do about it if his dice were really "hot".

I find that games with lots of chaos can be very entertaining and exciting. However, there is a price to pay and that is that sometimes you will get a dud game where someone has outrageous good or bad luck. Rather than be frustrated, we just shrug and set up the game again. After all, what is the alternative - Chess? No thanks I'd rather watch paint dry.


And to expand upon this, having someone able to attain a 'runaway' game is not limited to Quarriors. People like to mention Dominion a lot as the seemingly perfect deck builder and while I enjoy Dominion I have seen a fair amount of games ruled by someone getting perfect draws. Heck getting a 5/2 split in dominion when a particularly nasty attack card is available can make the session an uphill battle for the opposition right from the start.
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Kiren Maelwulf
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So I introduced Quarriors to 3 people that had not heard about it before much less played it. The nice thing is that they were all gamers, competitive MTG players to be precise so they picked up the rules very fast and we played for about 5 hours everyone enjoying the game. We played that every time we finished a set of cards we put them aside an picked new ones, so by the end of the night we had played every card at least once. Aside from the fact that the player who went first never won a single game (even though some argue first turn has an advantage), or that everyone tried different methods of culling without any one seeming to hold a large sway over the game; dragons did NOT dominate the matches, even though every version of them hit the table at least once. In fact the one game that dragons did clearly come out as the primary scoring creature, the early purchase and thus subsequent victory was more attributed to the purchase of Growth Charm which allowed the player to ready it and use it the following roll giving enough quiddity for the Dragon.

These were the MVPs of the night:
SPELLS
Growth Charm: Great early purchase that can lead to more frequent large purchases.
Death Charm: Even the weaker form of +3/+3 is hard to deal with, making small creatures big on attack AND defense.
Shaping Cantrip: In a game were the main focus is keeping your creatures alive until your turn a spell that gives you a second chance is huge. The fact that the dices non spell sides are plain good doesn’t hurt either.
CREATURES
Strong Deathdealer: In a four player game being able to score without even having to survive is tops.
Ghostly Spirit: So they have a high attack value? Doesn’t matter your guy not only comes back into play he culls for you doing it.
Mighty Witching Hag: The bane of all high attackers, brings dragons down to a crawl.
Strong Primordial Ooze: All of the above 8p.

These cards all did more than dragons last night, so I propose we ban them all as if dragons are overpowered these must be super overpowered. Seriously though I think what made last night’s games so fun was that the players involved quickly grasped a few points many seem to miss:

1) When you purchase a die you are NOT just purchasing 1-3 sides of that die you are buying all 6 sides. You may not always get the best side but you are aware during the purchase what you may be rolling with that particular die and that is something to think about when making the choice.
2) There are often solutions on the field if you look to pretty much any situation. They get a dragon early on? Mighty Witching Hag, Life Spell, Death Charm, etc there are ways to deal with it that cost much less than the dragon did. The different creature and spell abilities can actually make for an interesting game if you read them and utilize them rather than just grab the highest costing creature every time and hope for the luck of your rolls and the bad luck of your opponents.

I don’t want to generalize but after last night’s games I wonder if some of the comments that Quarriors is not a strategic game simply come from people that are NOT strategic players.
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Łukasz Kamiński
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Greath review of some dice. I agree with your foughts devil

Quarriors is greath game arrrh
 
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Christine Biancheria
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It's a great game, but in our one session, none of the spells helped deal with the dragon. Whether I want it to be true or not, it simply was invincible in our session.
 
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