Jerry Tresman
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Clarified by Jeff Billings and Updated to clearly spell out that Pinned units stats are halved and rounded down towards zero.
Updated for 1.72 rules see HIDE


The most important clarification is everything is always added/summed. So modifiers +1 -2 -1 and soldier value 2 = 0.

Clear the idea of subtraction completely out of your head as subconsciously it confuses a simple system, try it, think ADD and see how easily it all ADDs up. It only appears once in the Hide area of the rules but it stuck with a literal rules reader like me.

SHOOT : Sum all SHOOT modifiers, between shooter and target , exclude shooters tile unless it is also the targets tile and the target in cover.
Then add to range.
Example for Harrison shooting if Sum of modifiers = -3 shooters ranges then become :-
Close 12in + -3 = 9in
Short 5sq = 2sq
Long 10sq = 7sq
Toss 5in = 2in
RESULT :Target in range band that is less than or equal to the lowest shooters range band ,apply all hits made in and above that range band. Shooter becomes spotted place marker.

LOOK : Sum all LOOK modifiers between sighter and target,excluding sighters tile. Then add to the sighters sight value.
RESULT : Place spotted marker on target if less than or equal to modified sight value.

HIDE : In cover soldier sums all HIDE modifiers between him and nominated enemy soldier including the sighters tile.
Then add to cover value.
RESULT : Remove spotted marker if -ve total.

NOTE: Look, Hide and Shoot ranges are rarely reciprocal.

MOVE : Sum the modifier in the tile occupied with the walk distance for each move action , not tile moved through. e.g at beginning of each Move for a move and move again action.
RESULT : Soldier may move modified inches ,changing facing anywhere along the way.

ALL ACTIONS
: Soldiers pinned card values are halved rounded down towards zero. E.G.
+2 becomes 1
-2 .......-1
+3 ...... 1
+1 ...... 0
-1 ...... 0
-3 .......-1
2 
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Don Schoemaker
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Thank you, read the rules last night and am going to run through a solo run this evening. This helps clarify a few questions.
 
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Therron Thomas
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Jerry,

I have read this post about 20 times and I am not trying to be dense but can you explain how this is any different than just adding and subtracting modifiers based on their value and designation?

In your first example:

+1 -2 -1 and soldier value 2 = 0.

If I start with a value of 2 and add +1 then subtract -3 I get 0.

If I add +1 + -2 + -1 + +2 I still get 0.

Can you give me an example of where adding makes any difference as opposed to adding and subtracting?



The rounding down toward zero is interesting. I am trying to reason out how halving a value may make someone better than they normally are at a particular task.

Lets say someone has a value of +2 and that mean that are good at something and another has a -1 which means they are not as good at the same task. They both get pinned. Essentially the person who was good at the task gets worse and the worse gets better. Is that correct? It makes no logical sense but perhaps its not supposed to.
 
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Kevin Duke
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What complicates this is that the lower your numbers are for Hiding, the BETTER you are at being able to do it. So in your example,the guy with a -1 value is much better at hiding than the +2.

The unresolved question is whether the "halve values" for a pin means everything a soldier does gets worse...? (in this case, it means their hide numbers would have to increase...)

Or whether, as you assume in another post, being pinned makes a person BETTER able to hide?
 
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Michael Billings
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I want to make a clarification point for Kevin. Most of your stats (Look, Shoot, Move) get worse when you are pinned. This makes absolute sense since a guy is trying to keep his head down and out of the way.

Hiding however, can be improved or worsened because of a pin. This is as intended. Think of it like this:

Soldier 1 has a Hide value of 4. He is not very good at hiding, reconcealing himself or getting behind a tree. This could be because he may be a city boy that doesn't know how to walk in the woods, a big guy that may not walk softly or whatever it is that causes that value. When he is pinned however, he is getting his face in the dirt and is much more likely to find himself able to get behind a tree, hunker down and get out of sight. It is natural that a guy that is trying to get covered up is going to hide better that he normally would than if he was lumbering through the woods.

Now take Soldier 2 that has a Hide value of -2. This is your representative country boy that has been hunting and moving around the woods his whole life. These are the guys that when they can focus on it they can slip into the trees and disappear from sight. However, when they are pinned they can not move around as well as they could and are forced (just like Soldier 1) to eat dirt, keep their head down and dodge lead.

The halving of values works in every case. While most of the stats will get worse, Hiding is special because it forces the value closer to 0. That value that says, "When your sucking dirt through your left nostril, dodging lead and praying to God, everyone hides about the same."

Hope this makes sense. Sometimes, I am not the best word-ologist.
 
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Jerry Tresman
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[q="twthomas"]Jerry,

I have read this post about 20 times and I am not trying to be dense but can you explain how this is any different than just adding and subtracting modifiers based on their value and designation?

In your first example:

+1 -2 -1 and soldier value 2 = 0.

If I start with a value of 2 and add +1 then subtract -3 I get 0.

If I add +1 + -2 + -1 + +2 I still get 0.

Can you give me an example of where adding makes any difference as opposed to adding and subtracting?[q]


Yes in every case as subtracting a -ve number is adding it. 3 - -1 = 4.
1 subtract -3 = -2.

Its a maths thing thats why -1 + -1 = -2 and -1 + +1 = 0 (you are actually summing not adding them).

Sorry if I am being a bit OC maths wise.


 
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Steve Balaz
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The relevant text from the rules is:

"ALL stats are halved rounded down while pinned."

I would read that to mean -

half of -1 = -.5 Round down = -1
half of -3 = -1.5 Round down = -2
 
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Kevin Duke
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No, Jeff has clarified this otherwise.

The standard is to round down--toward zero-- in either direction.

So 1/2 of -1 = -.5, round to zero.

1/2 of 3 = -1.5, round down to -1.

The key surprise is that the 'good' hiding troops hide worse while pinned, while the poorer hiding troops hide better.
 
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Tim McCormley
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Starman54 wrote:

Clear the idea of subtraction completely out of your head as subconsciously it confuses a simple system, try it, think ADD and see how easily it all ADDs up.

Unfortunately, it's still not adding up for me, at least according to the way the rules seem to be written.

Can we work a complete example?

1) (Hypothetical) Shooter A: 8" from Target B, as measured on a ruler.
2) Intervening Terrain modifiers: (-1) + (-1) = -2.
3) According to the rules, (p13) I now add the modifiers to the distance. 8 + (-2) = 6". So the modified distance is 6".
4) According to the rules, I now look at the shooters card to determine what range band 6" falls into. Since Shooter A has a close range value of 8", this is a close range shot.

But this has got to be wrong because intervening terrain actually makes the shooting easier!

Based on your examples, it would appear that one simply adds the modifiers to the shooters range values and then compares them to the actual (measured on a ruler for inches or by the number of "counted" squares) range.

So:

1) (Hypothetical) Shooter A: 8" from Target B, as measured on a ruler.
2) Intervening Terrain modifiers: (-1) + (-1) = -2.
3) I add the modifiers to the SHOOTERS range band, which drops his close range to 6". (8 + (-2) = 6). Since the target is farther away (8") than his modified range band (6") the target is not in close range.


Yes/No/Maybe so?

Tim
 
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Allen Barton
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I think of it as terrain making it harder to shoot. So, the two terrain modifiers would at (1+1=2) to the actual distance, making it seem like the target is 10" away. Short range is 6", so outside of short. I think this is what starman means by "think add." That's just the way I keep it clear.
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JoeyNine
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armor_11, your second way of doing it is correct. The modifiers modify the soldier's card.
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Tim McCormley
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ajbartman wrote:
I think of it as terrain making it harder to shoot. So, the two terrain modifiers would at (1+1=2) to the actual distance, making it seem like the target is 10" away. Short range is 6", so outside of short. I think this is what starman means by "think add." That's just the way I keep it clear.

But the Marsh tile screws that up because it's shoot modifier is "+1."

The problem is what you add the modifiers to. "Think Add" works just fine if you add it to the soldiers shooting band on his card, rather than the measured range. (The Marsh DOES make it easier to shoot people.)

Starman and joeynine make perfect sense, I just can't derive their sensibilities from the rulebook. laugh

Tim
 
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Jerry Tresman
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ajbartman wrote:
I think of it as terrain making it harder to shoot. So, the two terrain modifiers would at (1+1=2) to the actual distance, making it seem like the target is 10" away. Short range is 6", so outside of short. I think this is what starman means by "think add." That's just the way I keep it clear.

The quote on think add was slightly out of context


http://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/71991/look-shoot-hide-move...
 
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Alexandre Gadoua
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We just had an argument concerning the +1 shoot modifier in the marsh and we finally agreed it makes total sense.

Reason is simple: Shooting an enemy soldier in a marsh, is easier. Lets face it, walking in a marsh with your gear in the mud is annoying, slow and since there is not a lot of cover, it's easier for the sholdier shooting.

So it is perfectly normal to have a +1 modifier on the marsh landmark to reflect this reality.

 
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Jerry Tresman
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Personally I agree with + modifier when shooting into terrain but not when shooting through, they should be ignored.

Otherwise shooting across +terrain or sighting or even hiding results in the intermediate +Modifier terrain acting like a magical magnifier.

For example two "parallel" soldiers shooting at the same target the same noumber of tiles away 1 has some marsh inbetween the other has a 0 crossroads the one shooting through the marsh gets an extra square range...
 
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Jeff Billings
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SBalaz wrote:
The relevant text from the rules is:

"ALL stats are halved rounded down while pinned."

I would read that to mean -

half of -1 = -.5 Round down = -1
half of -3 = -1.5 Round down = -2


Wow - Steve got this wrong!

Here is the math - first the system uses algebraic terms so: (-1) + (+2) + (-3) = -2.

Second the Rounding is a simple abolute value so: |-0.5| is 0.

The math is why SMG works. Without it the system would have been unplayable. Jerry's explanation is correct.

I lacked somewhat at turning the cleanliness of mathematics into the usefulness of game rules.
 
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Jeff Billings
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Starman54 wrote:
Personally I agree with + modifier when shooting into terrain but not when shooting through, they should be ignored.

Otherwise shooting across +terrain or sighting or even hiding results in the intermediate +Modifier terrain acting like a magical magnifier.

For example two "parallel" soldiers shooting at the same target the same noumber of tiles away 1 has some marsh inbetween the other has a 0 crossroads the one shooting through the marsh gets an extra square range...


The + modifiers will matter a bit later. The terrain using them is rare and when they are useful to some parts of play that re not yet released.
 
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Jerry Tresman
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1st Post Updated Version in line with Rules 1.72
 
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