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Subject: Basic Game - few rule clarifications? rss

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Kevin B
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Posting this request here rather than on the base game as (as another suggested), there are more eyes here now anyway.

That and the official forums at FFG for this game seem unusually quiet. soblue

So my questions are:

1) I know this was asked before but just to confirm. Slaanesh's 2 power upgrades Power of Pleasure AND Power of Pain result in a total of 9 power points correct?

A player insisted in my last game that it should be 10 - I let it slide as it was late into the game and the victor was obvious at that point.

2) Degenerate Royalty (another Slaanesh card) costs 3 PP. If played in a region with three or more corruption tokens, this card's cost is reduced by three. Can someone play this card if they have LESS than 3 PP (but not zero)?

I argued that you pay the cost, play the card and if there is or more, you don't lose the 3. However you have to have at least the 3 PP to play it. My opponent argued the reverse, play the card THEN deduct the PP which in this instance would be zero.

3) Plunged into Chaos (Old World Card). I get that everyone with peasant tokens gets VP and the player who has the most peasant tokens gets addition VP. But what happens to the peasant tokens? Are they turned in (effectively trading VP for peasant tokens) or do the players keep them throughout the game? If the latter then players can rack up quite a few VP by this means as it's not unheard of to have several Plunged into Chaos cards appear in a game.

4) Peripherally game related: should it be poor form to observe other players PP track? Such information can be helpful in knowing what they are capable of. I recognize that PP spending should be done openly to keep the players honest but still...

Many thanks!
 
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Joseph Cochran
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1) 9 points.

2) It reduces the cost, so you can have fewer than 3 points when you play it. There are cards in the expansion that say "gain points" after playing, which is the behavior you describe.

3) The peasants stay after the card. Yes, there are four copies of that Old World card, but there's no guarantee that even one will come up, so while it's possible that one player could score disproportionate points from peasants, they could also mean absolutely nothing.

4) I can't imagine that hidden PP would improve the game. We often have people honestly forget to deduct points sometimes: being unable to help verify expenditures would be awful for people who are honest.
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Kevin B
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jsciv wrote:
1) 9 points.
2) It reduces the cost, so you can have fewer than 3 points when you play it. There are cards in the expansion that say "gain points" after playing, which is the behavior you describe.

3) The peasants stay after the card. Yes, there are four copies of that Old World card, but there's no guarantee that even one will come up, so while it's possible that one player could score disproportionate points from peasants, they could also mean absolutely nothing.

4) I can't imagine that hidden PP would improve the game. We often have people honestly forget to deduct points sometimes: being unable to help verify expenditures would be awful for people who are honest.


Thanks for the prompt answer jsciv!

1) That's what I thought! modest

2) Really? I actually consulted the manual on this and it turns out there is a sequence of sorts for playing cards. From the manual page 12:

To play a Chaos card, a player simply does the following:

1. Chooses a card from his hand of Chaos cards.
2. Pays the selected card’s cost.
3. Places the card on an empty card space on any of the board’s nine regions and carries out its effects.

So paying comes before playing so when it's time to pay you don't have to worry about it. Apologies if I'm nitpicking on this - I don't suppose it matters that much and I'll have to concede that I may be wrong on this interpretation. whistle

Perhaps we can call upon the esteemed ColtsFan76 confirm my error?

3) If this is the case and players keep their peasant scalps throughout the game then winning by VP is a viable option for everyone is it not?

In my last game Plunged into Chaos came up 3 times and Khorne had a fair number of these peasant tokens. In the end Khorne won by dial but had it progressed to VP would have won as well having 52 VP in that round. And this is WITH turning in the peasant tokens! If the peasant tokens were counted cumulatively (round after round whenever the Plunged card came up) I'm guessing my game would have ended MUCH sooner. shake
 
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Daniel Hammond
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SaMatra wrote:


1. Chooses a card from his hand of Chaos cards.
2. Pays the selected card’s cost.
3. Places the card on an empty card space on any of the board’s nine regions and carries out its effects.

So paying comes before playing so when it's time to pay you don't have to worry about it. Apologies if I'm nitpicking on this - I don't suppose it matters that much and I'll have to concede that I may be wrong on this interpretation. :whistle:



The price you pay for the card is 0 if you are placing it in a space with 3 corruption. I agree that by the order there it kind of gets muddled, but to work like you say it would have to be:

1. Chooses a card from his hand of Chaos cards.
2. Pays the selected card’s cost.
3. Places the card on an empty card space on any of the board’s nine regions and carries out its effects.
4. Refund cost of the card if applicable.

Bottom line the card modifies it's own cost based on where it is being played. So the actual cost of the card is 3 - 3 = 0 in an area with 3 or more corruption tokens. Since there is only one place on the order of card play where you "pay" for the card all modifications for the cost will have to be calculated at that time (like the increased cost some cards have when other cards are in effect in that region).
 
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Brain Less
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SaMatra wrote:


1. Chooses a card from his hand of Chaos cards.
2. Pays the selected card’s cost.
3. Places the card on an empty card space on any of the board’s nine regions and carries out its effects.

So paying comes before playing so when it's time to pay you don't have to worry about it. Apologies if I'm nitpicking on this - I don't suppose it matters that much and I'll have to concede that I may be wrong on this interpretation. whistle




The card would have said : If played in a region with three or more corruption tokens, gain 3 power points.

If you had to pay 3 upfront to play it. As it is being written, the cost is reduced to 0, so you can play it even if you have 0 PP.





 
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Toni L
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Vuud wrote:


If you had to pay 3 upfront to play it. As it is being written, the cost is reduced to 0, so you can play it even if you have 0 PP.




Actually, you can't play anything if you have 0 PP, since your turn is skipped. But that's another question all together...
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Joseph Cochran
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SaMatra wrote:
2) Really? I actually consulted the manual on this and it turns out there is a sequence of sorts for playing cards. From the manual page 12:

To play a Chaos card, a player simply does the following:

1. Chooses a card from his hand of Chaos cards.
2. Pays the selected card’s cost.
3. Places the card on an empty card space on any of the board’s nine regions and carries out its effects.

So paying comes before playing so when it's time to pay you don't have to worry about it. Apologies if I'm nitpicking on this - I don't suppose it matters that much and I'll have to concede that I may be wrong on this interpretation. whistle


While it may be ambiguous from the rules as stated (and in fact it gets even weirder when you're trying to play a card into a region where Tzeentch has already played a Changer of Ways), from the wording of Debauchery in the Morrslieb set and the lack of a FAQ correction on the wording of Denerate Royalty, we can assume that the intent is for the cards to work differently (that is to say, for DR you can have less than 3PP remaining, but for D you have to have and spend the 3PP before you can be given the bonus gains).

SaMatra wrote:
3) If this is the case and players keep their peasant scalps throughout the game then winning by VP is a viable option for everyone is it not?


There are only 4 Plunged Into Chaos cards in the Old World deck, so the likelihood of them contributing significantly to a VP victory is low, but yes if multiples of them come out then they can add up. Nobody should count on that as a strategy, though: it can only be a tactical consideration because you don't know if you'll even GET those points when you're collecting the peasants in the first place.
 
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Kevin B
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dlhammond wrote:

The price you pay for the card is 0 if you are placing it in a space with 3 corruption. I agree that by the order there it kind of gets muddled, but to work like you say it would have to be:

1. Chooses a card from his hand of Chaos cards.
2. Pays the selected card’s cost.
3. Places the card on an empty card space on any of the board’s nine regions and carries out its effects.
4. Refund cost of the card if applicable.

Bottom line the card modifies it's own cost based on where it is being played. So the actual cost of the card is 3 - 3 = 0 in an area with 3 or more corruption tokens. Since there is only one place on the order of card play where you "pay" for the card all modifications for the cost will have to be calculated at that time (like the increased cost some cards have when other cards are in effect in that region).


I get you now. This card does sort of circumvent the chaos card playing steps doesn't it?

Therefore you need to calculate the value BEFORE it is played. It probably would have been better to have the value listed as X, were X is 3 reduced by corruption ...something like that.
 
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Kevin B
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Lozionica wrote:

Actually, you can't play anything if you have 0 PP, since your turn is skipped. But that's another question all together...


Quite right! Which actually started this line of thinking in the first place.

You can't play 0 value card when you are already at 0 PP.
 
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Matthew M
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Moved to CitOW forums
 
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Daniel Hammond
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SaMatra wrote:

Therefore you need to calculate the value BEFORE it is played. It probably would have been better to have the value listed as X, were X is 3 reduced by corruption ...something like that.


This misses the major point of the card. The card's value doesn't change, just its cost to cast. You are getting 3 domination points for free. If the corruption reduced the actual value of the card then it would also be worth zero domination when with 3 or more corruption.
 
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Kevin B
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dlhammond wrote:

This misses the major point of the card. The card's value doesn't change, just its cost to cast. You are getting 3 domination points for free. If the corruption reduced the actual value of the card then it would also be worth zero domination when with 3 or more corruption.


shake
In my haste I forgot that the printed card value is also used to calculate domination...
 
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