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Subject: What cards are the best for their price? What are the worst for their price? rss

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I Q
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I assume that there are more than a few contenders, and obviously Silver is a good 3-card and Gold a good 6-card. And Provinces are awesome 8-cards.

I assume that Coppers are usually better "0 cards" to get than curses. There, that was easy.

So, other things being equal (since strategies vary according to what other cards are available that game) what in general are some of the best/worst cards costing 2?

3?

4?

5?

6?

7?

etc.

And at what cost would variable cost cards like the Peddler be worth it?
 
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Ben Bateson
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There's a set of very good articles on exactly this subject over at the Dominion Strategy website

My gut reaction:

Best 2 card - Pawn (EDIT: Chapel! I forgot about Chapel! How do you forget about Chapel? But Pawn after that)
Best 3 card - Fishing Village (by a country mile)
Best 4 card - Pirate Ship
Best 5 card - Wharf (but I'd take Laboratory in a heartbeat)
Best 6 card - Goons (but Harem runs it close
Best 7 card - Kings Court (obviously)

Worst 2 card - Pearl Diver
Worst 3 card - Black Market (more for the hideous concept than any play issues)
Worst 4 card - Talisman (I don't really get it)
Worst 5 card - City (but I'm biased by playing a lot of 2-player, where games don't often end on 3 piles)
Worst 6 card - Adventurer
Worst 7 card - Forge

No downplaying the fact that Seaside is my favourite expansion...
 
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Dave Green
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http://dominionstrategy.com/ has a few well-written articles on best/worst cards.

My personal opinions:

$2 Best is Chapel, Worst is Secret Chamber
$3 Best is Fishing Village, Worse is Wishing WEll
$4 Best is Caravan, Worst is Talisman
$5 Best is Wharf, Worst is Contraband
$6 Best is Grand Market, Worst is Adventurer
$7 Best is King's Court, Worst is Bank

I will admit that I'm biased in favor of Seaside and against Intrique.
 
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The Compulsive Completist
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Fishing Village!
 
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Reverend Redd
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Here's my thoughts: Best, then Worst, not counting Basic Setup cards...

$2: Chapel, Lighthouse
$3: Village, Loan
$4: Salvager, Navigator
$5: Laboratory, Horn Of Plenty
$6: Nobles, Hoard
$7: King's Court, Expand

Of course, circumstance changes everything, so my list here assumes an average setup with little dependency on the appearance of other cards. I.E. Lighthouse is much better against lots of attacks; Chapel decks weaken vs. Thief, Saboteur, and Pirate Ship; etc. But then that's what Dominion is all about, isn't it?
 
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Tables
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More precisely to what ougsq mentioned: http://dominionstrategy.com/category/general-strategy/rankin...

Just for reference bear in mind Province, Platinum and Colony are all unique at their cost. Okay, there is Peddler, but that's so different in terms of cost I don't think it's right to compare.
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Derek Thompson
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This is pretty situational. Talisman is insane in a game, with, for example, Caravans. Or Tournaments. You can win the drain-the-pile race faster.

Pawn is really better than Lighthouse? I really have no idea, just wondering.
 
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Chris White
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I Eat Tables wrote:
More precisely to what ougsq mentioned: http://dominionstrategy.com/category/general-strategy/rankin...

Just for reference bear in mind Province, Platinum and Colony are all unique at their cost. Okay, there is Peddler, but that's so different in terms of cost I don't think it's right to compare.


Hey, the article on Villages is mine! whistle I think those lists (excepting the $4 cards) are mostly good, though they're a bit out of date now that Cornucopia's out, and I'm not sure I agree 100 percent with any of them.


IMO:

$2- Chapel is best, Secret Chamber is worst; though Moat is almost as bad. Hamlet is also really good, and Lighthouse is underrated; it gives you a Silver's worth of money for $2 without wasting an Action and it stops attacks! Way better than Moat or SC.

$3- Ambassador is best; IMO it's in fact the best card in the game (at least in 2P), and I hate it. Fishing Village, Masquerade, and Menagerie are close behind.

I guess I'd call Smugglers worst? But there isn't a clear worst $3 IMO, all of the bad $3s have their good days. Other mediocre $3s might include Great Hall, Workshop, Woodcutter, Fortune Teller, Chancellor, Black Market.

$4- Remake is best (edging Tournament by a nose), yeah I'd say Cornucopia has the best $4 cards. Sea Hag and Conspirator are also awesome. Thief is not just the worst $4, I think it's also the worst card in the game. Pirate Ship, Talisman, Bureaucrat and Scout are also real bad, and Coppersmith is fun when it works but it works so rarely.

$5- The best $5 cards probably have to start with Mountebank and then Witch; Curses are important. I kinda want to put Hunting Party third, since it's a better Lab; but really there are so, so many power $5 cards. Torturer, Minion, Ghost Ship, Tactician, Wharf, etc. etc. etc. etc. Explorer is my vote for worst $5, Stash and Saboteur are both also super underpowered.

$6- I think Goons is the best, but Grand Market is almost as good. Adventurer is the only card worth considering as the worst $6, all of the other cards which are this expensive are so much better. If you want to count Possession here, I think it's actually fairly weak for its cost most of the time.

$7- King's Court is the best, duh. I guess Forge is the worst, since trashing is better when you can get it early.

I normally won't buy Peddler for more than $4, and preferably I'd wait til it's at $2. But it would be an okay (not great) $4 card.

 
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Paul Oakley
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galathonredd wrote:

$2: Chapel, Lighthouse
$3: Village, Loan
$4: Salvager, Navigator
$5: Laboratory, Horn Of Plenty
$6: Nobles, Hoard
$7: King's Court, Expand


Oh dear.
 
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Reverend Redd
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Thisisnotasmile wrote:
galathonredd wrote:

$2: Chapel, Lighthouse
$3: Village, Loan
$4: Salvager, Navigator
$5: Laboratory, Horn Of Plenty
$6: Nobles, Hoard
$7: King's Court, Expand


Oh dear.


What?
 
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Dave Goldthorpe
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Whenever these lists come out there's always someone, usually me, who has to remind people that it's not important to know which card is usually the most powerful. It's important to know which cards are powerful in the specific kingdom you're looking at, and why. If you can't do that then someone will beat you up quite handily with great halls, scouts, an adventurer and a loan.
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Paul Oakley
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galathonredd wrote:
Thisisnotasmile wrote:
galathonredd wrote:

$2: Chapel, Lighthouse
$3: Village, Loan
$4: Salvager, Navigator
$5: Laboratory, Horn Of Plenty
$6: Nobles, Hoard
$7: King's Court, Expand


Oh dear.


What?


Your list is just plain wrong. I agree with you on Chapel and King's Court and you could make a half-decent argument for Expand. Apart from that you are way off the mark.
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The Broox
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Thisisnotasmile wrote:
galathonredd wrote:
Thisisnotasmile wrote:
galathonredd wrote:

$2: Chapel, Lighthouse
$3: Village, Loan
$4: Salvager, Navigator
$5: Laboratory, Horn Of Plenty
$6: Nobles, Hoard
$7: King's Court, Expand


Oh dear.


What?


Your list is just plain wrong. I agree with you on Chapel and King's Court and you could make a half-decent argument for Expand. Apart from that you are way off the mark.


Yeah, your opinion is super incorrect...

Your hopes and dreams are probably wrong as well.




Give me a break.
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Paul Oakley
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Are you seriously trying to tell me that Village is the best $3 card there is? That you'd take Laboratory over Mountebank, Witch, Hunting Party and Wharf any day? That you'd rather have an Explorer than a Hoard? That Navigator is worse than Theif and Talisman? That Goons and Grand Market are worse cards than Nobles?

Okay sure... Good luck with that.
 
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John Hodge
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I would say:

Cost Best Worst
$2 Chapel Secret Chamber
$3 Fishing Village Wishing Well
$4 Pirate Ship Coppersmith
$5 Mountebank Explorer
$6 Grand Market Fairgrounds (but they're all good)
$7 King's Court Forge (again, all good)


Honorable mentions to Wharf, Goons, and Ambassador.
Dishonorable mentions to Talisman, Pearl Diver, and Horn of Plenty.
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I Q
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Where there is disagreement, this would be relatively easy to solve. For example, have two players who disagree about the best cards at each level each pick 5 kingdom cards, one at cost 2, one at cost 3, one at cost 4, one at cost 5 and one at cost 6. Then they can test their separate strategies and see what works better.
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Mark Judd
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particle_man wrote:
Where there is disagreement, this would be relatively easy to solve. For example, have two players who disagree about the best cards at each level each pick 5 kingdom cards, one at cost 2, one at cost 3, one at cost 4, one at cost 5 and one at cost 6. Then they can test their separate strategies and see what works better.
shake

Did you guys miss Dave Goldthorpe's comment?
DaveGold wrote:
Whenever these lists come out there's always someone, usually me, who has to remind people that it's not important to know which card is usually the most powerful. It's important to know which cards are powerful in the specific kingdom you're looking at, and why. If you can't do that then someone will beat you up quite handily with great halls, scouts, an adventurer and a loan.

thumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsup

There is NO best card at any given price. There is NO worst card at any given price. The value of each card depends on the other kingdom cards available.

Give me a kingdom with King's Court, Hoard, Contraband, Venture, Loan, Bank, Horn of Plenty, Duke, Fairgrounds, and Gardens and I guarantee you that King's Court will not be the best $7 card.

Give me a 2 player match and I'll almost always guarantee that I will beat your Pirate Ships with my Smithy or almost any other $4 card, especially when there are no Village-type cards available.

I'm not even going to touch most of the cards that have been suggested as "best" or "worst" so far on this thread. I've won a decent number of matches using the "worst" cards as a key part of my strategy and have beat many opponents who have focused on purchasing some of the "best" cards while I've avoided those cards completely.
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Johannes Sjolte
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ousgg wrote:
There's a set of very good articles on exactly this subject over at the Dominion Strategy website

My gut reaction:

Best 2 card - Pawn (EDIT: Chapel! I forgot about Chapel! How do you forget about Chapel? But Pawn after that)
Best 3 card - Fishing Village (by a country mile)
Best 4 card - Pirate Ship
Best 5 card - Wharf (but I'd take Laboratory in a heartbeat)
Best 6 card - Goons (but Harem runs it close
Best 7 card - Kings Court (obviously)

Worst 2 card - Pearl Diver
Worst 3 card - Black Market (more for the hideous concept than any play issues)
Worst 4 card - Talisman (I don't really get it)
Worst 5 card - City (but I'm biased by playing a lot of 2-player, where games don't often end on 3 piles)
Worst 6 card - Adventurer
Worst 7 card - Forge

No downplaying the fact that Seaside is my favourite expansion...


I find it very funny to play a deck with Pearl Diver and Spy. Then you can almost decide for youself what you want to draw.
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Johannes Sjolte
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The good thing about Dominion is that there isn't any best or worse cards at any given cost. It all depends on the set up.
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Chris White
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Beaveman wrote:

There is NO best card at any given price. There is NO worst card at any given price. The value of each card depends on the other kingdom cards available.

Give me a kingdom with King's Court, Hoard, Contraband, Venture, Loan, Bank, Horn of Plenty, Duke, Fairgrounds, and Gardens and I guarantee you that King's Court will not be the best $7 card.

Give me a 2 player match and I'll almost always guarantee that I will beat your Pirate Ships with my Smithy or almost any other $4 card, especially when there are no Village-type cards available.

I'm not even going to touch most of the cards that have been suggested as "best" or "worst" so far on this thread. I've won a decent number of matches using the "worst" cards as a key part of my strategy and have beat many opponents who have focused on purchasing some of the "best" cards while I've avoided those cards completely.


Yes, the value of each card depends on the other cards, but some cards are valuable way more often, or they're way more valuable when they're good. For example, Mountebank is a better card than Counting House despite the fact that Counting House will actually do a great job of winning against Mountebanks. This is because in almost all other situations, Mountebank is better.

There is no single card in Dominion which is always worth buying, but there are cards that are worth buying in over 90 percent of setups, and I think it's fair to talk about those. Similarly, there are (almost) no cards which are never worth buying*, but some cards are so rarely worth it, so they get to be "worst".

* Thief is damn close to a never-buy. I've heard tales of it working in a 4 player game with Chapels and no non-Treasure sources of cash, but I've never ever witnessed one myself. I mean, I once played a 3p game where I had four Golds Thieved from me, and I still won big.
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The Compulsive Completist
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Beaveman wrote:
There is NO best card at any given price.

Chapel $2. whistle
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Mark Judd
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gf1024 wrote:
Hockey Mask wrote:
Beaveman wrote:
There is NO best card at any given price.

Chapel $2. whistle
Gardens and Philoshoper's Stone wanted me to say hello for them to you.

Especially when you throw in a Hamlet for $2
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John Hodge
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Beaveman wrote:
Did you guys miss Dave Goldthorpe's comment?
DaveGold wrote:
Whenever these lists come out there's always someone, usually me, who has to remind people that it's not important to know which card is usually the most powerful. It's important to know which cards are powerful in the specific kingdom you're looking at, and why. If you can't do that then someone will beat you up quite handily with great halls, scouts, an adventurer and a loan.

thumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsup

There is NO best card at any given price. There is NO worst card at any given price. The value of each card depends on the other kingdom cards available.

I don't think people missed the comment or necessarily even disagree with the sentiment. But that doesn't mean it's not still fun to discuss. I think everyone in this thread has a descent grasp of the fact that cards are only good relative to the other kingdom cards available (because as Dave said, it gets brought up every time). I still liked the process of looking over a list and comparing the typical value and seeing how other people agreed and disagreed.
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gf1024 wrote:
Hockey Mask wrote:
Beaveman wrote:
There is NO best card at any given price.

Chapel $2. whistle
Gardens and Philoshoper's Stone wanted me to say hello for them to you.

Neither of those cards costs $2, so what do they have to do with this?
 
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Mark Judd
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VTHodge wrote:
Beaveman wrote:
Did you guys miss Dave Goldthorpe's comment?
DaveGold wrote:
Whenever these lists come out there's always someone, usually me, who has to remind people that it's not important to know which card is usually the most powerful. It's important to know which cards are powerful in the specific kingdom you're looking at, and why. If you can't do that then someone will beat you up quite handily with great halls, scouts, an adventurer and a loan.

thumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsup

There is NO best card at any given price. There is NO worst card at any given price. The value of each card depends on the other kingdom cards available.

I don't think people missed the comment or necessarily even disagree with the sentiment. But that doesn't mean it's not still fun to discuss. I think everyone in this thread has a descent grasp of the fact that cards are only good relative to the other kingdom cards available (because as Dave said, it gets brought up every time). I still liked the process of looking over a list and comparing the typical value and seeing how other people agreed and disagreed.

If that's the case, then statistics might give a better idea than just people's opinions.

CouncilRoom.com's "Popular Buys" should help out with that.

http://councilroom.com/popular_buys

"Best" $8 - Peddler, "Worst" $8 - Province
"Best" $7 - King's Court, "Worst" $7 - Forge
"Best" $6 - Grand Market, "Worst" $6 - Adventurer
"Best" $5 - Mountebank, "Worst" $5 - Counting House
"Best" $4 - Sea Hag, "Worst" $4 - Thief
"Best" $3 - Masquerade, "Worst" $3 - Workshop
"Best" $2 - Chapel, "Worst" $2 - Secret Chamber
"Best" $0 - Followers, "Worst" $0 - Curse
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