Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
29 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Call of Cthulhu: The Card Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Khopesh of the Aybss rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
James Luksich
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
So I assume that if you placed it on an invulnerable character you would not be able to use the action of Khopesh of the Aybss because you are unable to wound your own character. Is this right?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ulrich Hergl
Germany
Riemerling
flag msg tools
I give demos for the Star Wars LCG in Munich
badge
I give demos for the Star Wars LCG in Munich
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yes, you are right. I asked FFG directly about this myself.

I got this answer from Damon Stone:

When deciding on how to apply the text of a card the following checks should be done:

1. Check to see if it has a play requirement. If so has that requirement be met?
2. Check to see if it has a cost. If so has it been paid?
3. Check to see if it is a targeted effect. If so are there legal targets to be chosen?
4. Check to see if the effect has a then, and, or secondary effect. If it does, is that effect contingent on the primary effect, or are the two tied in a fashion where if either fails the other does?


So in your case check 3 fails because you cannot wound an invulnerable character.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert R
United States
Arizona
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
This answer seems completely wrong. You aren't targeting the invulnerable character with the effect. It just says to chose a character, then the effect tries to wound the targeted character and the invulnerable character. At that point the wound would slide off the invulnerable character and wound the other. It's like having an invulnerable character in play and then playing a card that says to wound all characters. Every character except the invulnerable one would take a hit. The Kopesh only targets one of the two characters involved, the wounding is a blanket effect. If that is the official answer, it makes no sense.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Long
United States
State College
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Fly Eagles Fly!
badge
The Cthulhu player, not the Football player.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'd like to answer Robert, but I don't want to do so until I can read the card. What is the exact card text?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert R
United States
Arizona
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The relevant portion reads:

Action: Choose a character. That character and attached character each take one wound.

btw, nice to talk to you again Cannon, this is Archwraith from the old CoC boards. Glad to see you're still around!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Long
United States
State College
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Fly Eagles Fly!
badge
The Cthulhu player, not the Football player.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks so much for the card text, and yes, Robert is correct and the answer you got from FFG is wrong, by their own rules.

www_Mischraum_de wrote:
1. Check to see if it has a play requirement. If so has that requirement be met?

No requirements

www_Mischraum_de wrote:
2. Check to see if it has a cost. If so has it been paid?

Well obviously you have to pay for it.

www_Mischraum_de wrote:
3. Check to see if it is a targeted effect. If so are there legal targets to be chosen?

It is a targeted effect. However, the only requirement for targeting is that it is a character.

www_Mischraum_de wrote:
4. Check to see if the effect has a then, and, or secondary effect. If it does, is that effect contingent on the primary effect, or are the two tied in a fashion where if either fails the other does?

The secondary effect is wounding both characters, but there is no "Then" so it is not contingent on the first sentence working.

MordorFrodo wrote:
You aren't targeting the invulnerable character with the effect. It just says to chose a character, then the effect tries to wound the targeted character and the invulnerable character. At that point the wound would slide off the invulnerable character and wound the other.


Robert is completely right here. The targeting requirement only needs a character, not anything else. If FFG had wanted the card to work the way they suggest it does, they should have reworded it into a single sentence.

As soon as they made it two sentences they separated the targeting and the effect, allowing you to target Invulnerable characters.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Long
United States
State College
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Fly Eagles Fly!
badge
The Cthulhu player, not the Football player.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Just found the FAQ example to back me up....

Quote:
(v1.0) Eligible Targets
In order to target a card with an effect,
that card must meet the targeting
requirements. Any part of the effect for
which that character is ineligible is simply
ignored.

For example, with Brain Transplant
(Summons of the Deep F111) you may
target one insane character and one
ready character who are both controlled
by the same player, as per the targeting
requirement. If the ready character has
Willpower or a @ icon, it is ineligible
for the second part of the card’s effect
("The ready character goes insane,
if able"), so that part of the effect is
ignored.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert R
United States
Arizona
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Yeah, Chris, but what does it matter if this Damon Stone is wrong and we're right? He's in charge of the rules so his call goes for all high level tournaments. In a perfect world he would read this thread, realize the error of his ways and correct himself. In this world though, he will enforce his horrible interpretation of the card and go on eating his pancakes and eggs every morning as if nothing is wrong. What can be done? I will go on using the card corectly but there are so many that hinge on his words that nothing less than a clarification from him or an errata will do.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Beyer
Denmark
Copenhagen
flag msg tools
more.
badge
Avatar
Quote the answer from the email, refer back to the FAQ/Erratta as well as answers from this topic and get further clarification.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ulrich Hergl
Germany
Riemerling
flag msg tools
I give demos for the Star Wars LCG in Munich
badge
I give demos for the Star Wars LCG in Munich
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Do I sense some hostility in your post?

The problem with my answer on this question is that I made a summary of several mails I exchanged with Damon. What I can say for sure is that I was told I cannot use Khopesh if it is attached to a character with invulnerability. Then I was exchanging several emails with Damon regarding previous rulings I got from him and got the checklist I have posted here.

Myself I can understand your disagreement on the chosing part.
Please send your arguments to Damon before attacking him on the forums. As far as I know he and Nate are updating the FAQ in order to make it more comprehensible. This would be a good opportunity to arise your questions and concerns about rulings. He actually is a person one can communicate with.

And as he is the designer of Khopesh he should at least know how he intended it to work even if the wording may be problematic.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Long
United States
State College
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Fly Eagles Fly!
badge
The Cthulhu player, not the Football player.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
www_Mischraum_de wrote:
Do I sense some hostility in your post?


Certainly not from me I hope. I was just trying to answer the question.

www_Mischraum_de wrote:
What I can say for sure is that I was told I cannot use Khopesh if it is attached to a character with invulnerability. Then I was exchanging several emails with Damon regarding previous rulings I got from him and got the checklist I have posted here.


Yeah, and I love that checklist. It is merely unfortunate that he interprets it incorrectly.

www_Mischraum_de wrote:
And as he is the designer of Khopesh he should at least know how he intended it to work even if the wording may be problematic.


Aha! There's the problem right there. His answer was based entirely on how he wanted it to work, not how it was worded. This is a pretty common problem in testing and I know I was guilty of it myself as a playtester. We ask questions, are told how it works, and then just take that for granted. It is a serious weakness, and leads to a whole myriad of poor templating.

Just to be clear, I am not in any way attacking Damon, merely sympathizing, and pointing out his error. I'll see if I can find an email address and send him a note about the card. Could you PM me his email? I can't seem to find it.

MordorFrodo wrote:
I will go on using the card correctly but there are so many that hinge on his words that nothing less than a clarification from him or an errata will do.


And being from FFG, that's the way it should be. But honestly, it was much easier when everyone hung on my words. laugh
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ulrich Hergl
Germany
Riemerling
flag msg tools
I give demos for the Star Wars LCG in Munich
badge
I give demos for the Star Wars LCG in Munich
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
you can just use the rules question form on the FFG website. Your question will be directed to him.

And the only hostility I sensed was the post about Damon's breakfast....
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeffrey Speer
United States
Fargo
North Dakota
flag msg tools
Gravity Falls
badge
Remember, reality is an illusion, the universe is a hologram, buy gold, bye!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I had this same question a couple weeks ago, but I went right off the wording on the card. The wording makes it seem like it would work on an invulnerable character. That's kinda frustrating.

I am glad it doesn't work the way it SAYS it works.

sigh...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Long
United States
State College
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Fly Eagles Fly!
badge
The Cthulhu player, not the Football player.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
www_Mischraum_de wrote:
you can just use the rules question form on the FFG website. Your question will be directed to him.


Don't know where that is...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ulrich Hergl
Germany
Riemerling
flag msg tools
I give demos for the Star Wars LCG in Munich
badge
I give demos for the Star Wars LCG in Munich
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
radynski wrote:
www_Mischraum_de wrote:
you can just use the rules question form on the FFG website. Your question will be directed to him.


Don't know where that is...


http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_faq.asp
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Vincent de Wildt
Netherlands
Beverwijk
Noord-Holland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well, I would say: have some common sense. Although the wording on the card seems to be incorrect when you compare it with the faq, this card is already strong enough as it is (by attaching it only to non-invulnerable character).

It would be a broken card if it could be used on invulnerable characters. No cost what so ever to use the action ability other then wounding your own character. And wait, that last part doesn't apply. Wow, we have a cost 2 card which kills every character of my opponent which isnt invulnerable. And I can use it again next turn, and next turn, and next turn.


 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Beyer
Denmark
Copenhagen
flag msg tools
more.
badge
Avatar
The thing about these kinds of games is: Common sense isn't how one should decide how the games works or not. The basis of any kind of competition (whether a tournament or simply playing a game at home) is that both participants are able to clearly deduce the rules and course of action from a common source.
Common source meaning the rules, FAQ and errata.

This means that the application of "common sense" (since common sense isn't that common but biased towards one's own views)should never be applied in a game, whether we like it or not.

Doubts and discrepancies should always be handled by the rules.

You don't get to sit down and determine some card to be broken, thus altering the way it actually works.

If the rules do not cover the situations that arise during a game, the rules need expansion from the makers of the rules, not from the ones using the rules as framework for a game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert R
United States
Arizona
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I thought my post about his breakfast was funny! People are WAY too sensitive these days! Anyhoo, this card is too powerful no matter which way the ruling goes. Eyes open FFG or you will kill your game again.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Long
United States
State College
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Fly Eagles Fly!
badge
The Cthulhu player, not the Football player.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MordorFrodo wrote:
Eyes open FFG or you will kill your game again.


Too late, or haven't you seen the Silver Twilight faction yet? whistle
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Beyer
Denmark
Copenhagen
flag msg tools
more.
badge
Avatar
radynski wrote:
MordorFrodo wrote:
Eyes open FFG or you will kill your game again.


Too late, or haven't you seen the Silver Twilight faction yet? whistle


I haven't seen the twilight faction yet.
What about 'em?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Long
United States
State College
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Fly Eagles Fly!
badge
The Cthulhu player, not the Football player.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Update

Okay, I sent in the question on the linked form and Damon responded. At first I didn't quite understand him, but then he explained it more thoroughly and everything made sense. So here's what happens...

1. You can target an Invulnerable character with the card, just like I said, but...

2. If you do, then the effect fails, because Invulnerable characters cannot be wounded. And because effects need to succeed entirely, or fail entirely, it will not wound the other character.

This works differently from blanket wounding effects (which Robert mentioned above) because it is targeted wounding of those two characters.

So in essence, it will not work on Invulnerable characters, but you are welcome to waste your card.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert R
United States
Arizona
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks for the update, Chris, and your explanation is perfectly acceptable. Or would be if not for a sentence near the end of the faq: "you must seek to fulfill as much of a card's effect as possible." In the Kopesh's case wouldn't that mean that you would wound the non- invulnerable dude (since you can), then slide the wound off the invulnerable one? I thought only "if able" clauses were absolute pass or fail, remember Byakhee Attack? Any idea why KotA is different?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Long
United States
State College
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Fly Eagles Fly!
badge
The Cthulhu player, not the Football player.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Okay, I just emailed Damon again, bringing up your point Robert, and got this response:

Quote:
No. There are two effects for Khopesh. One which would be choosing a character. The second would be to wound both the chosen character and the attached character. If the character you were trying to target is a legal target but the attached character has Invulnerability you have attempted to resolve as much of the effect as you can.

Suffice to say, until the new FAQ comes out this is the current ruling that should be used, "If the Khopesh of the Abyss is attached to a character with Invulnerability, the effect of the Khopesh of the Abyss cannot fully or successfully resolve."


I don't really understand his third sentence there. He seems to be suggesting that if you can't wound both characters, then you can't wound either, AND at the same time you attempted to fulfill the card as much as you were able to do so.

That doesn't really make sense to me, but there's only so much semantics you can argue. The second paragraph feels a little bit like "because we say so" but I don't really think there's anything more to be said about it. It will soon be in the FAQ, so even if the FAQ seems to contradict itself (from our point of view, anyway), at least it will be very specific about the card itself.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert R
United States
Arizona
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Ok, I guess so. Thanks for all the help, Chris! Just another in the line of "because I say so" rulings. You know, if he just put "if able" at the end of the effect, we probably wouldn't even have a problem .
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Long
United States
State College
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Fly Eagles Fly!
badge
The Cthulhu player, not the Football player.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MordorFrodo wrote:
You know, if he just put "if able" at the end of the effect, we probably wouldn't even have a problem .


Exactly, that would totally fix the problem.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.