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Commands & Colors: Ancients» Forums » General

Subject: From CCN to CCA rss

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Guillaume Gleize
France
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Hello,

I just bought CCN few month ago, I'm in love of it & would like to follow the expansions but I'm having some questions about CCA:

1) About the eras: I really love BOTH of them much better than the modern wars because less sad memories (parents & grand parents touched or dead and human horror records)! I love the Napoleonics for the incredible balance between INF/CAV/ART and for the "panache" of the revolution new spirit but I love the Ancients for the exotics weapons like elephants & war machines, for the CLOSE FORMATIONS tactics and for the great influence of the LEADERS.

2) The problem with CCN is that it's new and we will have to wait for YEARS before getting the most known battles and armies (with respect for the courage of spanish people - really). So CCA is tempting me but: ARE ALL THE EXPANSIONS STILL AVAILABLE?

3) About the unit power: I really enjoyed so much the CCN system of the unit power less & less strong with the loss of the figures! I fell that I COULDN'T play anymore with constant power rule! To be said: I'm actually selling all my M44 & Battlecry games & expansions. Another exemple yesterday night: Playing CCN, I was 1 point away from the victory leading 4-2 and one of my units with 1 fig left only was standing close and isolated with an enemy unit of 2 figs ... I didn't attacked because I could only reduce him to 1 fig with the risk of giving him a victory point easily in fight-back. If it was M44 or CCA I would attack with my 4 dices max power! Believe it or not: I was close to invest in the CCA system (to get quickly tons of armies and adventures) but when a friend told me about this constant power rule ... IT STOPPED ME COLD! Your opinion about it? Does someone allready tried to create a CCA variant with decreasing power?
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Miguel (working on TENNISmind...)
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Tiens Guillaume, welcome to the best game of the series!

1) I think that CCA shines over all the others because of the way it forces players to work in formation (without the need of complex rules) and specially because of the leaders: most of the battle turns around them. And of course ancient battles are the ones that fit the flank/center division the best, I guess that the game system was born there.

2) If you take a look here:

http://www.philibertnet.com/advanced_search_result.html?keyw...

you'll see that the only ones missing are 2&3, but those are going to be reprinted together by GMT. If you really want to have them all and now, you may look for 2&3 on Ebay?

3) I wouldn't suggest to try a "decreasing power" variant, the game works very well as it is. I don't like it in M44, you can walk around with a 1-figure unit and kill a lot of people without a risk, but here you have battle back, and it changes everything! You have to be very sure that your weak units are going to finish off the enemy because if not you will lose them in the battle back.

So you will find yourself forming lines, supporting their flanks, leading your attacks with the leaders... great battles ahead! My advice: go at philibertnet and buy! And I don't get a commission from them (though I should!)...

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Kris Van Beurden
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I am not sure if all the expansions are still available, but II & III (the least available online as far as I can see) are being reprinted by GMT in a combined offering. So I wouldn't worry too much.

Unit Power: I had the same problem switching from CCN to CCA. In CCA, I still regularly make attacks on lone heavy infantry blocks and getting devastated by its battleback. However (I think I will be faster than KDuke on this one), I wouldn't fiddle with a time-and-tested system
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Kris Van Beurden
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franchi wrote:

2) If you take a look here:

http://www.philibertnet.com/advanced_search_result.html?keyw...

you'll see that the only ones missing are 2&3, but those are going to be reprinted together by GMT. If you really want to have them all and now, you may look for 2&3 on Ebay?


Hilarious. I also went to their site to quickly check availability (and that is what I based my comment upon). I just decided not to add a link to them, as I don't get a commission from them, either

Quote:
3) I wouldn't suggest to try a "decreasing power" variant, the game works very well as it is. I don't like it in M44, you can walk around with a 1-figure unit and kill a lot of people without a risk, but here you have battle back, and it changes everything! You have to be very sure that your weak units are going to finish off the enemy because if not you will lose them in the battle back.


Okay, I was faster than KDuke with this comment, but not faster than everybody
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Dom Rougier
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I really love both games, but I actually think that on balance C&C:A is actually superior - it just seems to capture the feel of large quantities of men slightly better, and the "line command" and "leadership" cards reduce the proportion of junk in the deck.

Plus, elephants. Everyone loves elephants.

There are many reasons not to use a "decreasing power" variant, but a simple explanation is that in a Napoleonic volley you're more concerned with the total weight of fire, whereas in Ancients it's only the first line or two that will be doing most of the fighting - and "destruction" of the unit is more the breaking of morale than the actual death of men.

The main advantage that Ancients has over Napoleonics at the moment is that the later expansions tend to have much more interesting scenarios, and with only one set C&C:N just can't compete yet.
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jeff miller
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I love them both as well and as I have said many times before I think they both reasonable portray the era they are trying to recreate. The constant dice in CC&A is accurate if you think about the limited amount of actual contact with the enemy an ancient sword and spear weilding unit had. As the front ranks were injured and fatigued they fell back and were supported by rear elements that came to the fore. Ancient units ability to inflict damage on a narrow front was not proportionately decreased by casualties.
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Kevin Duke
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Thanks for covering for me, Kris!

As has been posted many times, the "blocks" in CCA do not really represent literal soldiers, with an idea that a 4 block unit which loses 1 block has 25% fewer men now, but represent the "morale" of the unit. When Richard B. does CCA with miniatures, the "4 blocks" are 3 stray figures and then a large block of figures- the 'last block' means the whole unit goes.

It works. It works very well. As Franchi points out- the battle back rules mean a player has to be cautious about how to use 'hurt' units but sometimes that may be your best play.
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Orion J.N. Winder
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C&C:A = Best game of the series! (and I also love C&C:N) and it has SOOOOO much replay value with all the expansions and downloadable scenarios!

Both play well in their own theme/era... i.e. Don't change a thing...

(but contrary to some opinions, I personally "HATE" elephants, on my side OR my opponents... but that doesn't mean I don't find them tons of fun, just unpredictable; and in my "Murphy's Law" world, it's "always" in the worst possible way! )
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Guillaume Gleize
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Thanks for all thoses interesting answers.

About point 3):

I KNOW (from the start) the meaning of loss of figs in M44, BC and CCA (not the real number of soldiers but moral weakness etc). I just wanted to know if other players asked the question in general like me? Also I'm not sure I really understood the answers to this little technical point:

Playing CCN, I was 1 point away from the victory leading 4-2. One of my units with only 1 fig left was standing close and isolated with an enemy unit of 2 figs. I didn't attacked because I could only reduce him to 1 fig with the risk of giving him an easy victory point in fight-back. I feel it's a great point in CCN. If it was CCA, I would have attacked with my 4 dices max power because much less chances of fireback!

So I feel that having the advantage in point during a CCA battle gives you more power than in CCN because you can still better use the reduced units. You may answer me "so what? It's normal!". I would (try) to argue that it makes a lucky start of a battle being more rude for the opponent no?

Wait: this is ONLY a question and NOT A CRITICISM to this other beautifull game (I say that to cover myself and not being ridiculous in case I buy the game lol)!

laugh
 
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Miguel (working on TENNISmind...)
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Concerning the "front line pushed by the other ranks" idea, the best way I found to illustrate it is this great picture:


So no problem at all to understand that units keep their fighting power until the last block (Warriors and Barbarian Chariots are execptions, you'll see).

Anyway, don't forget that weak units ARE weak, because all units (the enemy too!) keep their full power, so even if you don't expose them to battle back they become easy targets. In the battles I play it is quite usual that, once units get to 1-2 blocks, they are moved to the reserve and replaced by full ones, when possible!

You are talking about a particular "weak vs weak" duel, but in general I have found myself with weak units that had been ordered, that were adjacent to an enemy unit, but that I refused to close combat with because of the potential battle back they could suffer. This simple mechanic takes care of many parameters and leads to very strategic choices...
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Guillaume Gleize
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Greaaat illustration!

It must be more easy for you to explain the "constant power rule" to the newcomers. Because the real true is that it's not really me that suffer from the "constant power rule" but when I explain M44 or BC150 to new players and arrive to the "constant power rule" ... they ALL NATURALY go "HAAA? WHY?" at this point ... it's tiring ... I have to explain them the same thing Kevin tried to explain me (lol) ... So I was so happy when this disappeared with CCN!

Last question about the expansions please:

Is that a bad sign:

C & C: Ancients Exp. Combo Pack #2 & 3
Reprint Editions OUT OF STOCK
P500 Reprint Combo Pack of Expansions #2 and #3 for C&C Ancients
Status: Not there yet
Orders To Date: 114

Few people interested in?
2012? 1013? 2014? Never?
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Miguel (working on TENNISmind...)
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Reprints in P500 don't need to reach 500, that magic number is mainly for the production of new games. Sometimes it is a bit less, sometimes much less than that.

I guess it depends more on the logistics, it could be that if they are ordering blocks in November for Exp#6 and CCN-Spanish they take the opportunity to order blocks for Exp#2-3 too, but I have no idea!

That's a question that is comming more and more often, maybe someone from GMT could give a P500 rough estimate for Exp#2-3?
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Robert Grainger
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franchi wrote:


Anyway, don't forget that weak units ARE weak, because all units (the enemy too!) keep their full power, so even if you don't expose them to battle back they become easy targets. In the battles I play it is quite usual that, once units get to 1-2 blocks, they are moved to the reserve and replaced by full ones, when possible!



This is very true. Someone did the maths on this (there's a thread about it), and even heavy units with 1 or 2 blocks are surprisingly fragile (sorry, I don't have time to locate the thread, but if you dig around, you will find it). Sometimes using damaged units pays off, but most of the time, you want to get them out of the action.

This also means that missile units are more useful than first appears, as if they even chip one block off a medium or heavy infantry unit before it reaches hand-to-hand with your own medium/heavy unit, that significantly slants the odds in your favour.
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Matthew Bysouth
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I definitely think you should not get into C&C: A - my inbox couldn't take it! (only joking). All the other comments are right. This is the definitely the era best suited to this system - the mechanics really make sense. I love C&C: N but that is because I already loved the period and have read a lot on the era. C&C: A actually got me into ancient warfare (not the other way round) and has resulted in me building a reasonable library on the subject. I hate to admit it but you'll love it and will be posting many interesting questions, comments and house rules (watch out Duke) in no time!

Welcome and enjoy!
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Guillaume Gleize
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To Matthew: I like your spirit.

But you can be sure that:

1) If I buy it I will not make variant rules (not on that kind of game). Or very few on details and secretly lol.
2) I'll post less and less threads with the better understanding of the C&C games and ... the spirit of the forum ...

GG
 
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Robert Grainger
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franchi wrote:
Reprints in P500 don't need to reach 500, that magic number is mainly for the production of new games. Sometimes it is a bit less, sometimes much less than that.

I guess it depends more on the logistics, it could be that if they are ordering blocks in November for Exp#6 and CCN-Spanish they take the opportunity to order blocks for Exp#2-3 too, but I have no idea!

That's a question that is comming more and more often, maybe someone from GMT could give a P500 rough estimate for Exp#2-3?


If they were ordering more blocks at the same time, though, wouldn't the expansion at least be pencilled into their schedule for 2012 (marked as "mid 2012", or something?).
 
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Miguel (working on TENNISmind...)
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As I said, I have no idea. All I know is that sometimes they have gone to re-print with some items, like 2nd edition of CCA (?) or mounted boards, that were well below 500 pre-orders, they maybe thought they were going to sell well anyway...
 
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