Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
7 Posts

Pamplona: Viva San Fermín!» Forums » Rules

Subject: Question about oxen & bull movement rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Dick Butler
United States
Paynesville
Minnesota
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
Played my first 4-player game Saturday, and was surprised that in 3 of the 4 sections players did not have enough cards to get all the oxen and bulls off the board. This was frustrating, but we agreed on a makeshift method to conclude the section runs anyway....not a very satisfying one, and I don't want this to happen again.

The reason I'm posting this in the rules section of the forum is that we caused the problem ourselves by misinterpreting the rules (at least in my opinion). What we did was to allow players to move their oxen or bulls onto rival runners without using up all the movement allowance on the played card. The result was that at the end of the section, players "ran out" of movement cards.

Now the rules state that the animals must move their full movement allowance given on the card unless prevented by another oxen or bull. But of course players are also encouraged to trample or gore rival runners when they get the chance. More often than not this is not possible unless players cut short the movement allowance for the oxen and bulls. Hence, the conflict and the problem.

What I want to know is this: Am I right in saying that the rule regarding oxen/bull movement takes precedence over the desire/opportunity to trample or gore rival runners?

I like this game and want to like it more and to get others to share my interest. Please clarify this and other questions before potential buyers write it off and give up on it.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tartan Grizzly Productions
Canada
Hamilton
Ontario
flag msg tools
publisher
Sorry for the late response. We've been working on a clarified version of the rules for Pamplona: Viva San Fermín! to address questions like yours, and we missed your post in the interim. (The movement section received special attention, by the way.)

So, in response to the situation you described:

Bulls and Oxen must use as much of their full movement (shown on the played card) as possible.

The only exception to this is when moving onto a Runner's square in order to Gore or Trample; in this case, the Bull or Ox stops in the Runner's square and loses the remainder of its movement.

Yes, this can lead to not having enough movement cards for a player's Bull or Ox, and this is part of the strategy in Pamplona: Viva San Fermín! -- hand management.

Remember also that it's not necessary (or even desirable, really) for the Bulls and Oxen to move off the board while there are still Runners on the board.

Each Run ends when all the Runners have left the board, either by exiting the end of the track or by getting Gored, and the Bulls and Oxen are removed at that point in order to set up for the next Run.

Hope this helps, and if you have any other questions, ask away!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dick Butler
United States
Paynesville
Minnesota
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks for responding to my question. I'm sorry, though, that I don't find it satisfying or helpful. Here's why:

1 Allowing players to cut short the movement allowance on an oxen or bull card in order to trample or gore an opponent's runner will almost always result in players not having enough movement cards to get the animals off the board. Your response does not address this likelihood.

I understand that it is not necessary for all the animals to move off the board while there are still runners on the board. The question is how to get runners off if oxen and bulls have blocked the way and don't have movement card to activate them. If the oxen and bulls don't/can't move near the end of a section, then the runners can't move either (assuming all four lanes are blocked or that a runner has an oxen on his back). I suppose players could re-shuffle their movement cards and deal out an additional 2 or 3 to himself. But what a turn-off, and time-consuming too, if it happens for virtually every section of the run.

2 Runners get only 2 movement points a turn, unless they're playing a beer car or special card. It is very difficult in regular play for runners to escape being gored or trampled (or trampled and then trampled again, or trampled and then gored). But when bulls and oxen are turned into hunters instead of just running animals, it is next to impossible to escape. Besides, allowing the animals to become predators takes away from the excitement of "running with the bulls" while trying to keep your runner from injury or death, which is what I thought the game was supposed to be about, primarily. If this becomes basically a game about trying to trample or gore other players' runners, then I'm finished with it.

Since the game is mine, however, I can always play it my way, which will be to require players to use all the points on whatever movement card they happen to play. There'll still be plenty of trampling and goring, I'm sure, but I suspect the game will be more fun.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dice Man
United States
Kentucky
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
I have played many times with very different groups of people and never had your problem (yet). Occasionally an animal is stranded but so far it has never affected a runner getting off the track.

T&Ging the runners is not that easy. Be sure if you are trappling or goring from directly behind the runner.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dick Butler
United States
Paynesville
Minnesota
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm less concerned about the "problem" of getting the bulls and oxen off the board than I am about the cause of it, which is the idea that players should use their oxen and bulls to deliberately trample and gore their opponents, rather than maneuvering them strategically to have it happen as a natural part of using all of the movement allowed by the card that they played.

My problem with the game, which I expected to be more satisfying, is in this use of the oxen and bulls as PREDATORS--which is not what they are on the streets of Pamplona. There, they're just hyper-excited animals running with other hyper-excited (two-legged) animals, who sometimes fall or get run over (and even gored) because they got in the way, not because the four-legged critters were out to get them.

I realize that part of the scoring encourages this. What I'm saying is that it should NOT be allowed... if the oxen or bulls have an opening to run past the vulnerable runners. If they don't have an opening and an ox or bull still running has movement left to use, well then it's tough luck to you Mr. Runner.

What has happened instead, in the games I've played, is that the first time a player's ox or bull has a shot at a runner, he runs him down, and then, like as not, another ox or bull from behind will run the runner over again before he's even had a chance to get back on his feet.

Not fun, and certainly not in the spirit of "running with the bulls."
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dice Man
United States
Kentucky
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
gamerbut wrote:
I'm less concerned about the "problem" of getting the bulls and oxen off the board than I am about the cause of it, which is the idea that players should use their oxen and bulls to deliberately trample and gore their opponents, rather than maneuvering them strategically to have it happen as a natural part of using all of the movement allowed by the card that they played.

My problem with the game, which I expected to be more satisfying, is in this use of the oxen and bulls as PREDATORS--which is not what they are on the streets of Pamplona. There, they're just hyper-excited animals running with other hyper-excited (two-legged) animals, who sometimes fall or get run over (and even gored) because they got in the way, not because the four-legged critters were out to get them.

I realize that part of the scoring encourages this. What I'm saying is that it should NOT be allowed... if the oxen or bulls have an opening to run past the vulnerable runners. If they don't have an opening and an ox or bull still running has movement left to use, well then it's tough luck to you Mr. Runner

What has happened instead, in the games I've played, is that the first time a player's ox or bull has a shot at a runner, he runs him down, and then, like as not, another ox or bull from behind will run the runner over again before he's even had a chance to get back on his feet.

Not fun, and certainly not in the spirit of "running with the bulls."


devil

if a bull runs over a runner he is not getting back up..... All games suspend reality to create a scoring system, thats what makes them interesting. Otherwise we would be gaming reality and that wouldnt be much fun.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
brian
United States
Cedar Lake
Indiana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mb
gamerbut wrote:
What has happened instead, in the games I've played, is that the first time a player's ox or bull has a shot at a runner, he runs him down, and then, like as not, another ox or bull from behind will run the runner over again before he's even had a chance to get back on his feet.

I am not following how this is happening. If a Bull "runs over" a runner, he is out of the section. So no one else will run him over.

If an Oxen "runs over" a runner, he is trampled. The Oxen must stop and so he is literally on top of the runner. Since no other Oxen or Bull can move into the space of this oxen, the trampled runner is safe from further tramplings/gorings this round.

Start of the next round, the oxen moves off first and the followed by the runner. No one gets a chance to try to run into you "before he's ... back on his feet." The only possibility is to run 2 spaces and then a bull/oxen behind you runs you over again. But you are on your feet at this point.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.