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Subject: 5.1.4 Determine Fleet Size Bonus: "units" or "ships"? rss

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Cracky McCracken
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Rule 5.1.4 reads as follows...

Quote:
5.1.4 Determine Fleet Size Bonus: If one player has twice as many unscreened, combat-capable units as his opponent in a combat, his firing units enjoy a +1 bonus to their Attack Strengths. Determine this Fleet Size Bonus at the start of each firing round. It is possible that as a battle progresses and ships are destroyed or retreat, the size differential will change...
emphasis mine

a unit is defined on page two of the rules as...

Quote:
Unit: Group, Decoy, Miner, Colony Ship, MS Pipeline, Base, or
Ship Yard.


Is it really the designer's intent to count "groups" of ships to determine the Fleet Size Bonus? Or should we be counting combat-capable ships? (as in 5.1.3 Determine Combat Screening)

It seems like in play it makes more sense to count ships instead of groups.

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David Debien
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I count ships instead of groups, including individual fighters. Pretty sure that was the intent.
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Brian Leet
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casualgod wrote:
I count ships instead of groups, including individual fighters. Pretty sure that was the intent.


Yes, this is clearly the intent from the examples.
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Cracky McCracken
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Maybe this can be corrected in the Living Rules. It really did trip me up a bit when i was learning the game.

If i was a playtester of SE4x i would have put forth a case against rule 5.1.4 altogether. It's a piece of chrome the game does not require (groups or ships). The advantage of bringing a well-researched fleet twice the size of your opponent's into a battle should make itself obvious once the dice start rolling. No need to give the superior force an artificial bonus on top of all that imo.

 
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Jim Krohn
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Yes, it is ships that are counted. I know it says units and a unit can include decoys and the like, but it says combat capable units so I thought it was clear.

The fleet size bonus is something that I love. It is more than just chrome (although I do think it is very thematic). The biggest fleet is not always the superior fleet and the fleet size bonus means you can't just build the biggest ships all the time. It encourages a more balanced and "realistic" approach to fleet construction.
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Edward Wehrenberg
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Thanks for sharing your reasoning on that, Jim. I see your point.
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Cracky McCracken
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Thanks for your reply Jim (and once again, thanks for SE4x)

Quote:
The fleet size bonus is something that I love. It is more than just chrome (although I do think it is very thematic). The biggest fleet is not always the superior fleet and the fleet size bonus means you can't just build the biggest ships all the time. It encourages a more balanced and "realistic" approach to fleet construction.


I'm a little confused by your reply here... I'm assuming the point of the Fleet Size Bonus is that a technically inferior player can still swarm a more technically advanced player's cruisers and battleships by attacking with superior numbers of cheaper ships. Which is cool, i'm sold.

Love this game Jim!!! The board itself is outstanding! Good job getting it mounted, it makes a huge difference and really helps SE4x shine like a supernova.



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Ocean Druen
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Cracky wrote:
Maybe this can be corrected in the Living Rules. It really did trip me up a bit when i was learning the game.

If i was a playtester of SE4x i would have put forth a case against rule 5.1.4 altogether. It's a piece of chrome the game does not require (groups or ships). The advantage of bringing a well-researched fleet twice the size of your opponent's into a battle should make itself obvious once the dice start rolling. No need to give the superior force an artificial bonus on top of all that imo.


I like the fleet size bonus and do not think it is just chrome. Cracky I think that you are thinking of it backwards, the rule allows for a strategy of spending less on researching large powerful ships and instead investing in having several smaller ships, or carriers, to gain an edge in combat.

Conclusion: It adds additional strategic options
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Michael Cook
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The fleet bonus is useful I think. to me it simulates that fact that a huge fleet of small ships could indeed be pretty dangerous.

By the way, I am loving this game!
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Jim Krohn
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Quote:
The fleet bonus is useful I think. to me it simulates that fact that a huge fleet of small ships could indeed be pretty dangerous.


And can more easily maneuver to fire at downed shields, etc.

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Graham Smallwood
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Wait, this game is awesome top to bottom, and even awesome plus one with the new "three point" win system. But the board? A shout out for the board? Really? If by "huge difference" you mean "made a huge difference in the price of the game", then yeah. But it's a blank hex map. Blank. Hex map. The most amazing thing about it is how heavy it makes the box.
 
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Guido Gloor
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It's space. Space is empty. What else than just a few stars (that actually look neat) did you expect?
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Chris Berger
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haslo wrote:
It's space. Space is empty. What else than just a few stars (that actually look neat) did you expect?


Maybe a score track. And a provost?
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Guido Gloor
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arkayn wrote:
haslo wrote:
It's space. Space is empty. What else than just a few stars (that actually look neat) did you expect?

Maybe a score track. And a provost?

A score track counting from zero to one, for "number of destroyed enemy home systems", with players winning with one point?

At least that'd provide us with a place where this game could use wooden cubes!
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Jim Krohn
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The board - we actually talked about a more colorful design, but there are a lot of counters all over the board, and we wanted them to stand out and not get lost in the board art. Function over Form won the day on that decision.

Thematically, Rodger was shooting for a feeling of empty space waiting to be explored. His final product fits with the whole "retro" theme of the artwork.

I do agree that, taken by itself, the board looks merely okay. It works better / looks better mid game.

Talking about this now, it is surprising how many little details are discussed among so many people before a GMT game goes to print.
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Chris Berger
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Jim Krohn wrote:
Thematically, Rodger was shooting for a feeling of empty space waiting to be explored. His final product fits with the whole "retro" theme of the artwork.

I do agree that, taken by itself, the board looks merely okay. It works better / looks better mid game.


I like the board. It actually looks pretty awesome despite being an empty hex map. Although the score track from 0 to 1 (I think 0 around the top and right side of the board and a 1 around the bottom and left) would have really kicked it up a notch.

And maybe a windrose.
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Jim Krohn
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Quote:
And maybe a windrose.


With a space sea monster next to it....
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Chris Berger
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Jim Krohn wrote:
Quote:
And maybe a windrose.


With a space sea monster next to it....


Well, there's always the special edition reprint.
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Cracky McCracken
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Quote:
But the board? A shout out for the board? Really? If by "huge difference" you mean "made a huge difference in the price of the game", then yeah. But it's a blank hex map. Blank. Hex map. The most amazing thing about it is how heavy it makes the box.


The board is friggin beautiful. Just one look at GMT's SE4x website entry and you can see how many potential buyers wanted a mounted board. It's worth every penny and it makes the game look great. I've always preferred mounted boards to cardstock. Who doesn't?

There's no doubt in my mind the mounted board is worth it.
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Mark Buetow
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The only thing I would criticize is the mounted board. laugh

If the box were deeper it wouldn't bother me but the craft box I use to store everything means the box doesn't close all the way. It would if the map weren't mounted.

I guess I could not like the too shallow box instead.
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M C
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Dorque wrote:
Wait, this game is awesome top to bottom, and even awesome plus one with the new "three point" win system. But the board? A shout out for the board? Really? If by "huge difference" you mean "made a huge difference in the price of the game", then yeah. But it's a blank hex map. Blank. Hex map. The most amazing thing about it is how heavy it makes the box.


That mounted map was GMT responding to the fans, especially those who pre-ordered. Can't please everyone, but it was clear that the majority wanted a mounted map. GMT gave it to us at no extra charge. I applaud GMT for responding so well to their customers.
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M C
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haslo wrote:

A score track counting from zero to one, for "number of destroyed enemy home systems", with players winning with one point?

At least that'd provide us with a place where this game could use wooden cubes!


Funniest comment today. You win virtual bacon!baconbacon
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Cracky McCracken
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Malacandra wrote:
The only thing I would criticize is the mounted board. laugh

If the box were deeper it wouldn't bother me but the craft box I use to store everything means the box doesn't close all the way. It would if the map weren't mounted.

I guess I could not like the too shallow box instead.


Exactly, that's "the cup's half full" attitude.

i look at this way, if this map wasn't mounted, i would have bought a poster frame for it by now for $5 to $10. I'de rather GMT and the designer get my money than Walmart. I don't mind paying for quality.

Plus, i love space maps. If you compare SE4x's board to Battleship Galaxies the quality difference is obvious. SE4x's board blows BG's boards away. I've already had to take Sharpies to my BG boards to color in the white creases that are appearing in the folds. shake
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Guido Gloor
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Cracky wrote:
I've already had to take Sharpies to my BG boards to color in the white creases that are appearing in the folds. shake

I did the same thing with mine, guess it's a common occurrence.

(And thanks for the bacon!)
 
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Ocean Druen
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arkayn wrote:
haslo wrote:
It's space. Space is empty. What else than just a few stars (that actually look neat) did you expect?


Maybe a score track. And a provost?


I mention in my review that an income track would be a great addition to the board. The game is great without it though.
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