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Subject: Sunken road (hex 41W7) rss

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Miikka Sohlman
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What does it cost for infantry to move from W7 to V6? Is it an abrupt elevation change (first up, then down)?
 
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Spencer Armstrong
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Hipsu wrote:


What does it cost for infantry to move from W7 to V6? Is it an abrupt elevation change (first up, then down)?


That's how I'd read it. 2 up, 2 down (building).

It's a "non-road hexside" so, per the Sunken Road rules, that would result in doubling to 2 (though superceded by AEC, I suppose, which is also 2), then the "normal cost" for the building. Seriously weird.

S
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Brian Roundhill
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Spencer Armstrong wrote:
Hipsu wrote:


What does it cost for infantry to move from W7 to V6? Is it an abrupt elevation change (first up, then down)?


That's how I'd read it. 2 up, 2 down (building).

It's a "non-road hexside" so, per the Sunken Road rules, that would result in doubling to 2 (though superceded by AEC, I suppose, which is also 2), then the "normal cost" for the building. Seriously weird.

S


I agree. This is similar to the example in B19.4, just one level higher. So 2 to go uphill into the intermidiate level of open-ground, and 2 to go downhill into a building.
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Pierce Ostrander
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I'm sure the posters realize this, but for clairty...

It is not going downhill that costs 2, but entering the building in hex V6.

You could bypass the building in V6 (on your way to another hex) and then it would only cost 3 MF to move from W7 to V6 ... two for the "up" and one for the "cost of other terrain in the hex" (open ground) to enter V6.

This is not an "abrupt elevation change" because it only a single level.

BTW - it is exactly the same cost to move from W7 to V7.
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Spencer Armstrong
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fubar awol wrote:
I'm sure the posters realize this, but for clairty...

It is not going downhill that costs 2, but entering the building in hex V6.


This poster realized that, hence my ref to "normal cost" for the building.

fubar awol wrote:
You could bypass the building in V6 (on your way to another hex) and then it would only cost 3 MF to move from W7 to V6 ... two for the "up" and one for the "cost of other terrain in the hex" (open ground) to enter V6.


Logical extension of above, yes.

fubar awol wrote:
This is not an "abrupt elevation change" because it only a single level.


I disagree. B10.5 defines an AEC as occurring "when a unit enters two or more levels while crossing one non-cliff hexside."

It does not say those levels have to be the same direction (up-down). In fact, two of the listed examples (15BB8/15AA9 and 12Y4/Y5) are up-down situations closely analogous to this, one up, one down, total two levels changed.

Also, I'm not sure how you can even calculate the movement cost for this if you don't use the AEC rules. Without treating it as "2 up, X down" you're left with same-level movement, and would have to treat it (clearly incorrectly) as simply cost of the hex entered.

fubar awol wrote:
BTW - it is exactly the same cost to move from W7 to V7.


Interesting observation. But only true if you go into the building (4 either way), false for bypass (3 vs. 2)

S
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Brian Roundhill
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fubar awol wrote:
This is not an "abrupt elevation change" because it only a single level.

BTW - it is exactly the same cost to move from W7 to V7.


A unit would enter two levels while crossing one non-cliff hexside, so it is an abrupt elevation change. The example for B19.4 supports this.

Normally, it is the exact same cost. But in Ground Snow with extra MF per elevation level change, for example, W7 to V6 would be 6 while W7 to V7 would be 5.
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I'm going to have to disagree with the consensus.

COT is the cost to enter the hex, not leave it.

B4.41 Infantry/Cavalry entering a Sunken Road hex through a non-road hexside do so at a cost of two MF. There is no cost for leaving a Sunken Road hex other than the normal penalties (10.4) for moving to higher elevation.

When moving to V6, you are not moving to a higher elevation, so the cost would be 2 MF. While moving from W7 to V7 would be 4MF (2MF doubled).
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Spencer Armstrong
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lesulm1 wrote:
I'm going to have to disagree with the consensus.

COT is the cost to enter the hex, not leave it.

B4.41 Infantry/Cavalry entering a Sunken Road hex through a non-road hexside do so at a cost of two MF. There is no cost for leaving a Sunken Road hex other than the normal penalties (10.4) for moving to higher elevation.

When moving to V6, you are not moving to a higher elevation, so the cost would be 2 MF. While moving from W7 to V7 would be 4MF (2MF doubled).


Check out the B10.5 Abrupt Elevation Change examples I listed above that are also "same level."

12Y4/Y5 is gully to gully with no connecting hexside, so up-down.**

15BB8/AA9 is level 2 hill to level 2 hill with a level 1 "slice" along the hexside, so down-up.

Like 41W7/V6 these both start and end at the same level, but still meet the definition of AEC because the unit "enters two or more levels while crossing one non-cliff hexside." Net elevation change doesn't matter, only the gross number of levels changed, be they all up, all down or up/down or down/up. (Think of it as absolute value rather than net value if that helps you)

Another gotcha on this... If you were playing this with snow, you'd have to pay twice on that hexside because you've changed elevation twice. There are a couple spots in AP23 Agony at Arnautovo where movement gets really ugly on account of this*.

*I just really read Roundhill's post...he already said this. Tip o' the cap, sorry for scan-read, Roundhill.

**Also noted by Roundhill, this is explicitly shown in B19.4 and is highly analogous.

S
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Miikka Sohlman
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I agree with the consensus.

Btw, the physical (SK style) board shows much more room on that hexside and originally it made me wonder if they could just squeeze right past the hill graphics on their way to the building. But I figured if they are not leaving by the road hexside, then it's always a hill side despite what the graphics looks...

It's interesting how bypassing V6 costs 3MF and V7 only 2MF.
 
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I agree with point about AEC, but at first glance I didn't see it applying here. But, it is clearly a sunken road hex, and the unit is crossing a non-road hexside. So, I stand corrected.

Thanks, because I would have certainly played this wrong.
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Martí Cabré

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Me too. Miikka's questions are very interesting!
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Stephen Stewart
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lesulm1 wrote:
I agree with point about AEC, but at first glance I didn't see it applying here. But, it is clearly a sunken road hex, and the unit is crossing a non-road hexside. So, I stand corrected.

Thanks, because I would have certainly played this wrong.


I hate that FRIGGING hex on that board!!
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Spencer Armstrong
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ASLChampion wrote:
I hate that FRIGGING hex on that board!!


I doubt anyone will disagree with this!

S
 
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