Recommend
6 
 Thumb up
 Hide
32 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Magic Realm» Forums » General

Subject: Finally Broke Down and Bought a Copy rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: mrjr_rsp [+] [View All]
p55carroll
United States
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Don't hang around, 'cause two's a crowd on my cloud, baby.
badge
If I were to hang my head, I'd miss all the rainbows. And I'd drown in raindrops instead.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Maybe I should have gone to bed instead of browsing eBay last night, but I ended up buying a copy of MR. It'll be the third copy I've owned. One was a gift for a friend years ago; the other was my copy that I never really got deeply into. I started to learn it, and I played part of a game once, but that was it. I tried to introduce it to my wife (because she used to play D&D in college and I thought this might be similar--never having played D&D myself), but she hated the complicated mechanics and lack of overt storytelling (the very things that appealed to me).

But I've read so many good things about MR here in BGG that I'm just going to have to give it a fair shake. Runebound just didn't do it for me; too light, with too much flavor text. And I've really enjoyed intricate games like Gunslinger and ASL.

And if, besides being an amazing game in its own right, MR is also eminently suitable for solitaire, then I simply can't pass it up. It probably won't turn out to be the happy culmination of my lifelong quest for the perfect game--but of all games, perhaps it holds the most promise.

We'll see. Wish me luck.
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
mjw65ss
United States
Monterey
California
flag msg tools
mbmb
Great decision on a great game!
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Bigney
United States
Kingston
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Best of luck. Enjoy the ride.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott DeMers
United States
Denver
Colorado
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Welcome to the addiction. You will never be the same.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martí Cabré

Terrassa
Catalonia, Spain
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Wish you luck!
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
bob m
United States
Flagstaff
Arizona
flag msg tools
Right on!
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Schacher

Spring
Texas
msg tools
mbmbmb
If you liked Gunslinger, you'll love Magic Realm. They were both designed by the same person, Richard Hamblen.

Steve S
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Jones
United Kingdom
Sheffield
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm about to start my third attempt to break the back of this....it's just that damn rule book.

I'm trying to learn and write a more cohesive 'manual' for the basic section of the game (no spells, no hiring and the like) for people to just find an easier way in!

It IS an amazing game, but the learning curve, as it, is painful!

CHRIS
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tristan Hall
England
Manchester
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
LIFEFORM - LATE PLEDGE NOW!!!
badge
LIFEFORM - LATE PLEDGE NOW!!!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Goldenturkey wrote:
I'm trying to learn and write a more cohesive 'manual' for the basic section of the game (no spells, no hiring and the like) for people to just find an easier way in!


Be interested to see this if you do it mate.
I gave up on MR a long time ago after many hours spent printing and cutting and reading and then scouring all the "read this, then watch this, then chew this and swallow this" posts.
Which were no doubt very helpful to those with more willpower than myself I hasten to add...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve McKnight
United States
Needham
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb

As many people have noted, the Robin Warren's RealmSpeak computer implementation of Magic Realm (http://realmspeak.dewkid.com/) provides a new valuable tool for people trying to find their way into the game. In particular, the battle.bat combat simulator allows you to try out all the complexities of the combat system so you have some background for your gaming experience. Try the Berserker vs. a T Spider, vs. two Heavy Dragons, or vs. the T Troll for starters. Try starting hidden or non-hidden to understand why a Hide roll can be one of the most critical events of the game. If you want to experience a nail-biting life or death struggle, try the Amazon vs. two Giant Bats. In fact, solitaire RealmSpeak can be addicting, but I would encourage you to work toward the point where you can lay the game out on a table for a truly unique experience with friends.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls

Lacombe
Louisiana
msg tools
badge
Suddenly a shot rang out! A door slammed. The maid screamed. Suddenly a pirate ship appeared on the horizon! While millions of people were starving, the king lived in luxury. Meanwhile, on a small farm in Kansas, a boy was growing up.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ninjadorg wrote:
Goldenturkey wrote:
I'm trying to learn and write a more cohesive 'manual' for the basic section of the game (no spells, no hiring and the like) for people to just find an easier way in!


Be interested to see this if you do it mate.


It's already been done, and it didn't work and/or so many people complained that the community rewrote the rules to be the fully integrated monstrosity they are now. The earlier editions of the ruleset [first and second edition] introduced the game in modules that were easily digestable and didn't contain the complicated sub-systems of magic, hiring, etc.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Jones
United Kingdom
Sheffield
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
NateStraight wrote:
ninjadorg wrote:
Goldenturkey wrote:
I'm trying to learn and write a more cohesive 'manual' for the basic section of the game (no spells, no hiring and the like) for people to just find an easier way in!


Be interested to see this if you do it mate.


It's already been done, and it didn't work and/or so many people complained that the community rewrote the rules to be the fully integrated monstrosity they are now. The earlier editions of the ruleset [first and second edition] introduced the game in modules that were easily digestable and didn't contain the complicated sub-systems of magic, hiring, etc.


That may be true, but it doesn't work for me! I've tried looking all these things and unless you know what they mean they're as initially intractable as the rules book is now.

I'm up to 60 pages of text so far just trying to link together all those things you need to know at the same time!! There are so many rules you need to know and they're referenced fully but all through the rule book.

I'm willing to give it a go and try to write something that is the journey I went down to learn NOT a rule book.

This is an old stand point with those who can play (probably rightly) saying "just stick with it" and myself who believes there MUST be an easier way to learn THEN use the rule book as a fantastic reference once you can play!

CHRIS
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
p55carroll
United States
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Don't hang around, 'cause two's a crowd on my cloud, baby.
badge
If I were to hang my head, I'd miss all the rainbows. And I'd drown in raindrops instead.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Regarding the rules, I'm not (yet) afraid of tackling them. I grew up on Avalon Hill games and learned them all on my own.

I suspect the problem many people have is in coming to terms with the concept that the rules and mechanics are the game. That is, the designer expresses his intended game-play experience primarily through the rules and mechanics, not so much via flavor text or back story or artwork or anything else. So, to "get it," you have to take the game as a whole (or in modules, if it's broken down that way, as it appears to be in MR) and work with the mechanics (referring to the rules as needed) until it all comes together and starts flowing.

The effect is to put the players squarely into the emergent story. While you're doing what the game requires you to do, and you're completely immersed in doing all that, you may have a surprising moment where you say to yourself, "Wow--I'm really in this adventure, living it."

To me, that's pretty much the whole point of these old-style Avalon Hill games--the best ones, anyway.

I would think people who grew up on video games might have a harder time in one way: the computer does a lot for players, so most of the mechanics are hidden under the hood. But in another way, video gamers would have an advantage: they're used to games being very complex and rich in detail.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Jones
United Kingdom
Sheffield
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Patrick Carroll wrote:
I suspect the problem many people have is in coming to terms with the concept that the rules and mechanics are the game. That is, the designer expresses his intended game-play experience primarily through the rules and mechanics, not so much via flavor text or back story or artwork or anything else...

I think you're being a little unfair to some, I have played alot of games and, for me, MR is the most complex by far.

The actual game mechanics are very intuitive and logical, but the rulebook is not a learning tool and this game is simply too complex to learn without a massive investments of time and effort.

To me this indicates that something is very wrong, rather than that people want to be jostled along upon a wave of hyperbole that draws you through like a film script. The rulebook is simply that, a list of rules in some form of ordered structure, not a structured learning guide.

Even MRIPE etc are brilliant works to support play, but of no real use to a complete novice as a way to lower the bar. I have posted many times on this before, and I feel that a learning document is needed to allow new player to access this amazing game. Just search previous posts and begin to count the number of people who admit to failure when it comes to learning MR. This is a crying shame.

CHRIS
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
p55carroll
United States
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Don't hang around, 'cause two's a crowd on my cloud, baby.
badge
If I were to hang my head, I'd miss all the rainbows. And I'd drown in raindrops instead.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Goldenturkey wrote:
I think you're being a little unfair to some, I have played alot of games and, for me, MR is the most complex by far.

Well, I'll find out for myself soon enough. As I said above, I've owned this game before and learned it well enough to play at least a partial game. So I have some idea what I'm in for (though it's been twenty-odd years since I've seen it).

Back then, before computers became ubiquitous and life sped up so much, I'd buy a game with the full intention of making it something of a lifestyle game--learning it and then practicing it forevermore, introducing it to all comers. I figured getting into MR would be like getting into D&D or ASL or something--not anything to just dabble at, but something to go whole-hog with or stay away from.

I hear what you're saying, though. If this game is as good as its fans claim, then it's too bad it didn't attract a big following like D&D or ASL. If it had, there'd be lots of people around to teach it to newcomers. The next best thing would be a user-friendly programmed-instruction book that would really teach the game step-by-step, making it easy for anyone interested to pick it up and try it.

For all I know at this point, I may run up against a brick wall myself. In the last couple years, I've noticed I have more trouble than ever learning new games. I've been put off by much simpler games than MR.

But at any rate, I'm not going into it with stars in my eyes.

If I take to the game, maybe I'll someday set out to write a noob-friendly manual of some kind. For now, I'm just bracing myself for the struggle and hoping for some gaming enjoyment.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Jones
United Kingdom
Sheffield
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Patrick Carroll wrote:
If I take to the game, maybe I'll someday set out to write a noob-friendly manual of some kind. For now, I'm just bracing myself for the struggle and hoping for some gaming enjoyment.

...Unless I get there first.

My last attempt faltered in March, but I've finished my latest project and I'm going back to my "reduced MR tutorials" folder and reaching for my 3.2 rulebook (again).

With the right entry this could be a massive hit rather than a Gaming behemoth!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
p55carroll
United States
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Don't hang around, 'cause two's a crowd on my cloud, baby.
badge
If I were to hang my head, I'd miss all the rainbows. And I'd drown in raindrops instead.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Goldenturkey wrote:
With the right entry this could be a massive hit rather than a Gaming behemoth!

Good luck with it, if that's what you're setting out to achieve.

Meanwhile, I personally find its "behemoth" nature strangely appealing. Here's a game over thirty years old that a handful of fans are still going wild over, yet getting into it sounds like climbing Mt. Everest.

I think it'd be cool to get to the top of the mountain and experience what's really there. Maybe it'll be a Shangri-la. Or maybe I'll just meet other die-hard fans there, having a laugh and saying, "Well, now you know: it's not really worth the effort, but here we all are, and it was a good climb."

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Jones
United Kingdom
Sheffield
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Patrick Carroll wrote:
Meanwhile, I personally find its "behemoth" nature strangely appealing....

I'm with you on that one, but that's not what I was intending to communicate.

Maybe Gaming Gordian Knot would be better (or even 4 dimensional rubic cube?)

It is complex, but then so is Dune, and the new rule book for that (by Slev) is just a dream. It can be done, its just that no one has written it from a learning journey, its alway been from a here are the clear rules that you play with - which is amazingly useful.

There are still rule questions I have about the basics (stuff like horse tokens flipping etc and aspects of weapons) that have not been answered by about page 120 when the question popped in my mind at about page 22! This is frustrating in the max!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Berserker in peace
Hong Kong
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
Goldenturkey wrote:
There are still rule questions I have about the basics (stuff like horse tokens flipping etc and aspects of weapons) that have not been answered by about page 120 when the question popped in my mind at about page 22! This is frustrating in the max!

When does a horse flip?

Character's horse: any side at any phase/stage
-- During Daylight: the strength of the horse (the bigger letter printed on the counter) is not below the weight of his heaviest belonging, which makes perfect sense,
-- Combat in Evening: when trying to Run Away in Encounter Step; and before attacks are resolved in Melee Step. Horses are played just in the same way as the character's (rider's) Move chit when running away/maneuvering.

Hirelings' horses:
- During Daylight: doesn't matter for underlings (non-leader hirelings); but the same restriction applies to a hired leader's horse if it is carrying the hiring character's stuff (strength >= weight of heaviest belonging)
- During Combat: any side during Encounter Step, the other side in Melee Step. But note that the hireling (rider) may change tactics and reposition, but their horses only reposition and never changes tactics (flip).

Free denizens' horses
- During Daylight: light side up.
- During Combat: light side up in Encounter Step, dark (galloping) side up in Melee Step.



2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
p55carroll
United States
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Don't hang around, 'cause two's a crowd on my cloud, baby.
badge
If I were to hang my head, I'd miss all the rainbows. And I'd drown in raindrops instead.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ulfhethnar wrote:
Goldenturkey wrote:
There are still rule questions I have about the basics (stuff like horse tokens flipping etc and aspects of weapons) that have not been answered by about page 120 when the question popped in my mind at about page 22! This is frustrating in the max!

When does a horse flip?

Character's horse: any side at any phase/stage
-- During Daylight: the strength of the horse (the bigger letter printed on the counter) is not below the weight of his heaviest belonging, which makes perfect sense,
-- Combat in Evening: when trying to Run Away in Encounter Step; and before attacks are resolved in Melee Step. Horses are played just in the same way as the character's (rider's) Move chit when running away/maneuvering.

Hirelings' horses:
- During Daylight: doesn't matter for underlings (non-leader hirelings); but the same restriction applies to a hired leader's horse if it is carrying the hiring character's stuff (strength >= weight of heaviest belonging)
- During Combat: any side during Encounter Step, the other side in Melee Step. But note that the hireling (rider) may change tactics and reposition, but their horses only reposition and never changes tactics (flip).

Free denizens' horses
- During Daylight: light side up.
- During Combat: light side up in Encounter Step, dark (galloping) side up in Melee Step.

Now, there's a man who knows his MR horses!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Berserker in peace
Hong Kong
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
Patrick Carroll wrote:

Meanwhile, I personally find its "behemoth" nature strangely appealing. Here's a game over thirty years old that a handful of fans are still going wild over, yet getting into it sounds like climbing Mt. Everest.

I think it'd be cool to get to the top of the mountain and experience what's really there. Maybe it'll be a Shangri-la. Or maybe I'll just meet other die-hard fans there, having a laugh and saying, "Well, now you know: it's not really worth the effort, but here we all are, and it was a good climb."


I for one suppose what is so appealing of this insane game is not only the beauty of the game design but also the complexity in and of itself.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
p55carroll
United States
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Don't hang around, 'cause two's a crowd on my cloud, baby.
badge
If I were to hang my head, I'd miss all the rainbows. And I'd drown in raindrops instead.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ulfhethnar wrote:
I for one suppose what is so appealing of this insane game is not only the beauty of the game design but also the complexity in and of itself.

That's a plus for me. As a mostly solitaire gamer, I can only have fun if I'm learning something. Learning the rules can be a bit annoying at times, but it's part of learning to be a decent player. Once I get to the stage where I know all about how to play, and all that's left is improving my game play, I start asking myself, "Who am I trying to impress?" It's good mental exercise, but if it's just for me, it's hard to get motivated. Plus, I usually hit a plateau and can't get past it.

So, a game that promises to keep me in a state of "still much more to learn" for a long time is welcome.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Jones
United Kingdom
Sheffield
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Patrick Carroll wrote:
So, a game that promises to keep me in a state of "still much more to learn" for a long time is welcome.

This is just the holy grail of gaming. I absolutely agree, but that damnable rulebook!!!!!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
p55carroll
United States
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Don't hang around, 'cause two's a crowd on my cloud, baby.
badge
If I were to hang my head, I'd miss all the rainbows. And I'd drown in raindrops instead.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Woohoo! The game I bought arrived in today's mail. My wife watched me open it and didn't complain about the money I'd spent. I told her I tried to teach her the game years ago (probably around 1990), but she didn't remember, of course (she has no memory for such things).

The box and components appear to be in great condition, at first glance. Lightly used. Haven't counted everything, but the tiles and character cards are all there. The treasure setup card is nicely laminated, which is kind of a bonus.

Only the first-edition rules are included, however. But I started reading the third-edition rules online the other day, so I know where to find them.

Guess I'm all set to get started.

And it's a good sign that I'm enthused for once. The last few times I bought a "great game" on eBay, I had buyer's regret the day it arrived. I'd look at it, browse through the rules, and think, "Aw, I'll probably never get around to playing this." But this time I was excited, and when I read the first section of rules, I wanted to play right away.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John McKendrick
United Kingdom
Glasgow
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Patrick Carroll wrote:
Woohoo! The game I bought arrived in today's mail. My wife watched me open it and didn't complain about the money I'd spent. I told her I tried to teach her the game years ago (probably around 1990), but she didn't remember, of course (she has no memory for such things).

The box and components appear to be in great condition, at first glance. Lightly used. Haven't counted everything, but the tiles and character cards are all there. The treasure setup card is nicely laminated, which is kind of a bonus.

Only the first-edition rules are included, however. But I started reading the third-edition rules online the other day, so I know where to find them.

Guess I'm all set to get started.

And it's a good sign that I'm enthused for once. The last few times I bought a "great game" on eBay, I had buyer's regret the day it arrived. I'd look at it, browse through the rules, and think, "Aw, I'll probably never get around to playing this." But this time I was excited, and when I read the first section of rules, I wanted to play right away.


Gawd, wonderful post. I have the game and have kept it for almost thirty years. As you learn, maybe I shall again

-John

ps . I'm pretty sure I can do move, hide, combat and all ..... it's magic and natives that scare the life out of me robot
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.