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Subject: a twist on large fleet bonus, the 4x bonus. rss

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M C
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I am just throwing this out here, not even sure how I feel about it. Help me think through this, my fellow geeks.

What if there was a second level of large fleet bonus, +2 if you had four times the combat fleet of an opponent?

I suggest this because it seems to me that mid game the small ship swarm cannot compete with tech level 2 cruisers or battle cruisers. Small ships are expensive, relativity, in both cost (9 for a DD, vs 12 for a CA) and upkeep compared to the fire power you get.

What do you think?

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Chris Berger
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I don't think it's necessary or desirable. Granted I have little evidence to back this up, but I feel like the small ship strategy has just enough going for it as it is - the fleet bonus makes it viable, but not quite to the point where you can completely ignore tech and just produce scouts - unless you are able to smoke your opponent before they even get to the really big, well-teched ships. If just producing scouts all game (or even fighters, though granted that requires a few levels of tech and also some mine sweepers) was just as viable as using Dreadnaughts, then there'd be no point in putting in the extra effort to get to the big ships.
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Ocean Druen
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It seems like something that may have been tried in playtesting. I tend to agree (on this!!) with Chris that it would make the small ship strategy too powerful, in particular fighters. Heavy fighters with this strategy would dominate the game.

For giggles how about having no bonus if you had four times the combat fleet because there are just too many ships that they get in each other's way. Then when some ships are destroyed you get the fleet bonus?
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M C
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The rule could be tied to a certain level of tactics (lv 2 or 3 perhaps?) to help balance it. Thematically it could make sense either way, I think. You could argue that large fleets are just a logistical nightmare. On the other hand, in space you can be flanked in three dimensions.

I don't know what this rule would do to balance. Honestly I think the game has another 100+ plays in it for me with the current rules before I even start tweeking, but this idea occurred to me and I wanted to throw it out there.
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Chris Berger
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sirius23 wrote:
The rule could be tied to a certain level of tactics (lv 2 or 3 perhaps?) to help balance it. Thematically it could make sense either way, I think. You could argue that large fleets are just a logistical nightmare. On the other hand there is flanking in three dimensions in space.


Linking it to Tactics, now, seems like an interesting idea... Like lvl 2 allows you a +2 fleet size bonus, and lvl 3 allows you a +3 fleet size bonus. Assuming you would need at least 3x fleet size for the +2 bonus and 4x fleet size for the +3 (or more insanely, 4x for +2 and 8x for +3). So now you've got my attention... =)

Quote:
I don't know what this rule would do to balance. Honestly I think the game has another 100+ plays in it for me with the current rules before I even start tweeking, but this idea occurred to me and I wanted to throw it out there.


100... plus... plays? How many hours do you have for gaming? Good lord, I don't think I'll ever, in my entire life, get 100 plays of a game if you don't count electronic. And probably still pretty unlikely if you do count electronic games if there's no AI, since games against an AI take like 1/10th the time and can be paused when a baby starts screaming or a wife starts... umm... I doubt she'll read this but let's say asking very nicely for help with something that she absolutely deserves a hand with because she works hard too and I love her. ninjawhistle
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Jim Krohn
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Quote:
I doubt she'll read this but let's say asking very nicely for help with something that she absolutely deserves a hand with because she works hard too and I love her.


Space Ghost is wise...
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M C
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arkayn wrote:


100... plus... plays? How many hours do you have for gaming?


That comment was more of an estimation of the replayability of the base game (and I assume forthcoming expansions) than my time. I think 6-12 plays a year of SE is more likely with my availability. Though I would play twice a week if I could.
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Jason Cawley
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I'm against it. The original proposal that is. I think lots o littles is already pretty heavily favored in this game and doesn't need help. Bigger ships had better win with as much invested in them or there would be no reason to ever buy larger ship technology. Also, the smaller ships all have late game roles as special items against parts of the enemy tech tree - scouts get PD vs fighters, DDs get scanners vs. Raiders, of course minesweepers sweep mines.

Consider the fighting power and costs for a DD based fleet that spends only on attack and defense 1 tech, then plows everything else into DDs, compared to a BC based fleet that buys the ship size, attack and defense 2 to utilize the bigger size, and then buys just BCs at 15 each.

Suppose the total spent on both fleets is 300 resources, including tech and 2 economic phases worth of maintenance.

The DDs spend 50 on tech (10 for size 2, 20 each for attack and defense 1), then 11 per ship on build and maintenance, buying 22 DDs with 8 resources left over.

The BCs need to spend the same 50 on tech, then 60 more for attack and defense 2, and 35 more again for size 3 and 4, for a total of 145 spent on tech - half the budget. Each BC then costs 19 with 2 rounds of maintenance, so the rest of the budget can afford 8 of them, with 3 left over.

What happens when 8 BCs with A2 D2 tech meet 22 DDs with A1 D1? The BCs fire first with a 60% chance to hit and kill 5 DDs, expectation. The DDs return fire with +1 for 2:1 odds - an edge that cost the BCs 30 resources in tech - giving them a 30% chance to hit. They have 5 hits expected which kill 2 BCs and damage another. 13-14 DDs survive the next shot to kill 2 more BCs with 4 hits, those can kill 2-3 more DDs, 3 more hits kill all but 2 BCs, which kill off 1-2 more DDs before dying. Overall the DDs expect to lose about half the fleet but win the battle.

To catch up, the fleet sizes need to rise beyond even these pretty large levels, to spread the initial tech cost over more ships. It take more like 500 points on tech and fleets with 4 turns of maintenance for the BC approach to become superior. Even then it is close enough that the BCs expect to lose more like 70% of their fleet winning.

The BC fleet is more vulnerable to mines, loses much of its hit chance and its initiative edge against fighters rather than DDs, etc. It better have some circumstances and scale for which it is superior to the DD horde, or nobody would ever bother with bigger ships.
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M C
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JasonC wrote:

What happens when 8 BCs with A2 D2 tech meet 22 DDs with A1 D1? The BCs fire first with a 60% chance to hit and kill 5 DDs, expectation. The DDs return fire with +1 for 2:1 odds - an edge that cost the BCs 30 resources in tech - giving them a 30% chance to hit. They have 5 hits expected which kill 2 BCs and damage another. 13-14 DDs survive the next shot to kill 2 more BCs with 4 hits, those can kill 2-3 more DDs, 3 more hits kill all but 2 BCs, which kill off 1-2 more DDs before dying. Overall the DDs expect to lose about half the fleet but win the battle.

To catch up, the fleet sizes need to rise beyond even these pretty large levels, to spread the initial tech cost over more ships. It take more like 500 points on tech and fleets with 4 turns of maintenance for the BC approach to become superior. Even then it is close enough that the BCs expect to lose more like 70% of their fleet winning.

Good analysis, thanks.



JasonC wrote:


The BC fleet is more vulnerable to mines, loses much of its hit chance and its initiative edge against fighters rather than DDs, etc. It better have some circumstances and scale for which it is superior to the DD horde, or nobody would ever bother with bigger ships.


Mines are something I never considered. Good point.
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Jim Krohn
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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I agree with the analysis. It is right on.

For those of you going the big ship approach, it gets better as the game goes on. Earlier in the game, the key is to almost never go 100% big ship. You always want enough escorts so that your fleet is not at a 2:1 disadvantage. You might want to only build the biggest ships, and sometimes that works, but it is a dangerous thing to do.
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Jef Addley
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arkayn wrote:
[q="sirius23"]---snip...umm... I doubt she'll read this but let's say asking very nicely for help with something that she absolutely deserves a hand with because she works hard too and I love her. ninjawhistle


Wow nice save

Never rely on the fact that u wont walk from the pc to take out trash with this thread on screen or similar....its happened to me!
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