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Subject: Here is some freedom for you: Choose your own sex! rss

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Jasper
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In the under sea level poststamp nation that I call home the laws regarding sex change are currently thus: To change you sex in the official documentation one has to have had their bits changed (and presumably has to demonstrate that in court). Also, strangely, a second demand is that the person is infertile (through means of the appropriate surgical procedures).

Since this is now viewed as an unwarrented governmental intrusion into their citizens underwear, 'they' are preparing a new law that would make it possible to change sex in the official registration if you can demonstrate to the judge and an independent expert that your feelings of really belonging to another sex are unwavering.

So, one can be an offcial girl while maintining the option of stand up pissing.

My question to you: good news for liberty or outragous offence to common decency?

It'll be no surprise for some that I applaud this change of conditions. Indeed, I think as a society we are to hung up on who has which bits between their legs. But I want to hear arguments from the other side, so shoot away dear sirs and madams!
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Rich Shipley
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Seems easy enough to treat people how they want to be treated in this case. Gender is a murkier concept than some realize.
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Boaty McBoatface
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Venga2 wrote:
In the under sea level poststamp nation that I call home the laws regarding sex change are currently thus: To change you sex in the official documentation one has to have had their bits changed (and presumably has to demonstrate that in court). Also, strangely, a second demand is that the person is infertile (through means of the appropriate surgical procedures).

Since this is now viewed as an unwarrented governmental intrusion into their citizens underwear, 'they' are preparing a new law that would make it possible to change sex in the official registration if you can demonstrate to the judge and an independent expert that your feelings of really belonging to another sex are unwavering.

So, one can be an offcial girl while maintining the option of stand up pissing.

My question to you: good news for liberty or outragous offence to common decency?

It'll be no surprise for some that I applaud this change of conditions. Indeed, I think as a society we are to hung up on who has which bits between their legs. But I want to hear arguments from the other side, so shoot away dear sirs and madams!


Neither, its just symbolic of their struggle against reality.
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Boaty McBoatface
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rshipley wrote:
Seems easy enough to treat people how they want to be treated in this case. Gender is a murkier concept than some realize.


And no one is sayng they should not, ut this is about ignoring the fact they have the wrong genatlaia. Moreover does this mean I can be a Manmen or a won becasue I feel niether male nor female but a combination of the two, ir that I can now say I am a lesbian?
 
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slatersteven wrote:
And no one is sayng they should not, ut this is about ignoring the fact they have the wrong genatlaia.


They do have the wrong genitalia. That's why it's important to allow people to be registered as the sex of their brain, rather than the sex of their body.

slatersteven wrote:
Moreover does this mean I can be a Manmen or a won becasue I feel niether male nor female but a combination of the two, ir that I can now say I am a lesbian?


I'd be quite happy with allowing a neutral option on the form. You could also say you were a lesbian, if you also ticked woman.
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Boaty McBoatface
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Dolphinandrew wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
And no one is sayng they should not, ut this is about ignoring the fact they have the wrong genatlaia.


They do have the wrong genitalia. That's why it's important to allow people to be registered as the sex of their brain, rather than the sex of their body.


Then why would they not have a sex change to become their 'real' sex?

Quote:
slatersteven wrote:
Moreover does this mean I can be a Manmen or a won becasue I feel niether male nor female but a combination of the two, ir that I can now say I am a lesbian?


I'd be quite happy with allowing a neutral option on the form. You could also say you were a lesbian, if you also ticked woman.


So I could therefore get my self registterd as female to use female toilets? Errmmm what is wrong here?
 
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slatersteven wrote:
Then why would they not have a sex change to become their 'real' sex?


Some of them might be going through the process. Some might not be able to afford it. Some might be terrified of operations. Does it matter?

slatersteven wrote:
So I could therefore get my self registterd as female to use female toilets? Errmmm what is wrong here?


It could happen. Pretty unlikely though given the jumping through hoops that are required for the change to get put through, like "demonstrate to the judge and an independent expert that your feelings of really belonging to another sex are unwavering".
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Boaty McBoatface
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Dolphinandrew wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Then why would they not have a sex change to become their 'real' sex?


Some of them might be going through the process. Some might not be able to afford it. Some might be terrified of operations. Does it matter?

Yes, because of the potential for abuse. The law should be there to protect people, not to indulge them. There may be an argument for gender relainment to be availible for free, but I really have to ask how much someone is unwavering if they are afraid of the operation.

Quote:
slatersteven wrote:
So I could therefore get my self registterd as female to use female toilets? Errmmm what is wrong here?


It could happen. Pretty unlikely though given the jumping through hoops that are required for the change to get put through, like "demonstrate to the judge and an independent expert that your feelings of really belonging to another sex are unwavering".


Yep, thats prety cast iron that. Its not like experts have never made mistakes or been fooled by clever trickters? Indead what kind if unwavering commitment would they need? how to you even measure it?
 
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slatersteven wrote:
Yes, because of the potential for abuse. The law should be there to protect people, not to indulge them.


This kind of law is very much for the protection of a group of people that is in a highly dangerous position.

slatersteven wrote:
Yep, thats prety cast iron that. Its not like experts have never made mistakes or been fooled by clever trickters? Indead what kind if unwavering commitment would they need? how to you even measure it?


I'd guess they get an expert psychologist to interview them. That's what happens before sex change operations now.

But yes. I suppose it's possible that some pervert might:
1) Fill out all the paper work needed for this.
2) Go through the bother of an in depth interview and a change of lifestyle in order convince a judge and psychologist that they were serious about the issue
3) Spend the money that no doubt all of this will require.
4) Then go into ladies restrooms.

Of course, they might not bother with 1-3 and skip straight to 4. I mean, why not?
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Dolphinandrew wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Yes, because of the potential for abuse. The law should be there to protect people, not to indulge them.


This kind of law is very much for the protection of a group of people that is in a highly dangerous position.


What danger?

Quote:
slatersteven wrote:
Yep, thats prety cast iron that. Its not like experts have never made mistakes or been fooled by clever trickters? Indead what kind if unwavering commitment would they need? how to you even measure it?


I'd guess they get an expert psychologist to interview them. That's what happens before sex change operations now.

But yes. I suppose it's possible that some pervert might:
1) Fill out all the paper work needed for this.
2) Go through the bother of an in depth interview and a change of lifestyle in order convince a judge and psychologist that they were serious about the issue

Does this happen with Sex changes?
Quote:
3) Spend the money that no doubt all of this will require.
4) Then go into ladies restrooms.

Of course, they might not bother with 1-3 and skip straight to 4. I mean, why not?


Because by going trough all the other steps they avoid prosecution for the rest of their lives? In fact I will tell you a little story, there was this man who worked for an IT firm in Essex, he told the company he was a woman and refused to use the men’s toilets and demanded to use the women’s. The women found him a creepy pervert and refused (as did the men in fact, it seemed to be universal), so the company built him his own private toilet on site.

Then there is sport, Ken Cleanairsystem (6 and a half foot tall and sixteen stone of pure thugery, hobbies are hitting things and hitting things harder) has decide he is a woman, passes all the test and becomes a female boxer, won’t that be fun we all cry (what harm can there be in a 6 and a half foot tall man beating the crap out of a woman?, ohh sorry he’s not a man).
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Eric Schiedler
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Here is an outstanding video about the unusual cases that these gender laws may try to address.

The speaker is Alice Dreger and she introduces the concept of "Intersex."

http://www.ted.com/talks/alice_dreger_is_anatomy_destiny.htm...
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slatersteven wrote:
What danger?


The murder and attack rate on transgendered people is massively out of proportion with their relative numbers in the population. Anything that helps legitimize their place in society is a good thing.

slatersteven wrote:
Does this happen with Sex changes?


It depends on ow you are paying for the operation, and where you live. But most sex change operations, from my understanding, come with a great deal of counselling before hand, and a huge amount of checking that it's what you really want. But that's only sensible. It is a large, expensive and possibly dangerous operation, after all. Some countries also require that you spend a certain amount of time living as a person of the sex that they consider themselves, and proving that you've done so. Whatever that means.


slatersteven wrote:
Because by going trough all the other steps they avoid prosecution for the rest of their lives?


Not if they are going into toilets being a sex pest they wont. Your gender is no help there. I suppose if they are going into toilets and not doing any thing bad while in them, then I suppose they'll get away with it. Err, oh no? Seems like a lot of effort on their part for little reward.

slatersteven wrote:
The women found him a creepy pervert and refused (as did the men in fact, it seemed to be universal), so the company built him his own private toilet on site.


Depending on the details, that sounds like a case of either clear transgender discrimination, or clear sexual harassment by the creepy person. In the second case, the person should clearly be fired, woman or not.
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slatersteven wrote:
rshipley wrote:
Seems easy enough to treat people how they want to be treated in this case. Gender is a murkier concept than some realize.


And no one is sayng they should not, ut this is about ignoring the fact they have the wrong genatlaia. Moreover does this mean I can be a Manmen or a won becasue I feel niether male nor female but a combination of the two, ir that I can now say I am a lesbian?
I am not aware of any official government documentation such as birth certificates that list sexual preference, but I am ready to be enlightened.
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Alaren wrote:
I'm much less concerned with so-called "common decency" than I am with certain inescapable biological truths. While gender roles are to a large extent socially constructed, your genes are not.


Nor is your brain. And there is a noticeable difference in the way, on average, that female and male brains operate. Unsurprisingly trasgender people that were put in similar studies tended to have brains that reacted much more like someone of the sex they called themselves than the sex their genitals (and genes) suggested they were.
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Alaren wrote:
I'm much less concerned with so-called "common decency" than I am with certain inescapable biological truths. While gender roles are to a large extent socially constructed, your genes are not. And though there are a number of edge cases (androgen insensitivity syndrome, for example) that can be used to muddy the waters, the fact remains that for the overwhelming majority of the population, men and women differ in ways that go a lot deeper than how they want to be treated.


How much do you think this changes when people undergo hormone treatments?

I've seen estimates of people who physically differ from standard male or female at 1 in 100. That is 10s of millions of edge cases before considering how people think about themselves.
 
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Dolphinandrew wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
What danger?


The murder and attack rate on transgendered people is massively out of proportion with their relative numbers in the population. Anything that helps legitimize their place in society is a good thing.


Ahh yes I can just see it. "OI you some kind of a pervert", "No actually, I think you'll find legally I'm a woman", "Ohh sorry to disturb you, come on lads lets kick in a real poove". Do you really believe that some one who hate transsexuals will stop hating them because the law now says they are the opposite sex, you mean in the same way that making homosexuality legal has stopped homophonic attacks?

Quote:
slatersteven wrote:
Does this happen with Sex changes?


It depends on ow you are paying for the operation, and where you live. But most sex change operations, from my understanding, come with a great deal of counselling before hand, and a huge amount of checking that it's what you really want. But that's only sensible. It is a large, expensive and possibly dangerous operation, after all. Some countries also require that you spend a certain amount of time living as a person of the sex that they consider themselves, and proving that you've done so. Whatever that means.


But not in all cases, what about Holland?


Quote:

slatersteven wrote:
Because by going trough all the other steps they avoid prosecution for the rest of their lives?


Not if they are going into toilets being a sex pest they wont. Your gender is no help there. I suppose if they are going into toilets and not doing any thing bad while in them, then I suppose they'll get away with it. Err, oh no? Seems like a lot of effort on their part for little reward.


No, but there are things you can do, wanking off, sniffing the seats. Hell even sitting mwith the door open and your cock out.

Quote:
slatersteven wrote:
The women found him a creepy pervert and refused (as did the men in fact, it seemed to be universal), so the company built him his own private toilet on site.


Depending on the details, that sounds like a case of either clear transgender discrimination, or clear sexual harassment by the creepy person. In the second case, the person should clearly be fired, woman or not.


Sadly it was years ago, so no more details.
 
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Venga2 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
rshipley wrote:
Seems easy enough to treat people how they want to be treated in this case. Gender is a murkier concept than some realize.


And no one is sayng they should not, ut this is about ignoring the fact they have the wrong genatlaia. Moreover does this mean I can be a Manmen or a won becasue I feel niether male nor female but a combination of the two, ir that I can now say I am a lesbian?
I am not aware of any official government documentation such as birth certificates that list sexual preference, but I am ready to be enlightened.


What I meant is a female who like women, but traped insode a mans body. Thus I call myslef female whilst retaining all the things (including sexual preferances) that make me male.
 
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slatersteven wrote:
Do yhou really belie that soome one who hatee transexuals will stop hating them becasuse the law now says they are the opposite sex, you mean in the saem way mthat making homosexualtiy legal has stoped himophoic attacks?


No. But I do think the increased acceptance and much better lives that homosexuals are able to lead today compared to, say, 50 years ago comes, at least partly, form government laws like this one that recognise the rights of people to be how they are and live how they want.



slatersteven wrote:
Which would surley be the same kind of commitement requred to prove you really want to be a man/Woman?


Yes, it requires a lot of commitment to get gender re-assignment surgery, and likely even to get a simple ID change.

Also, they already are men and women. They just want the surgery.

slatersteven wrote:
No, but there are things you can do, wanking off, sniffing the seats. Hell even sitting mwith the door open and your cock out.


You think a woman could get away with these things (replacing the cock with relevant genitals) in a woman's toilet and not face serious repercussions, including sexual harassment charges? I think you'll find they definitely wouldn't.
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slatersteven wrote:
What I meant is a female who like women, but traped insode a mans body. Thus I call myslef female whilst retaining all the things (including sexual preferances) that make me male.


There are plenty of homosexual transgendered people. I'm not sure why it would be a particular issue?
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Dolphinandrew wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Do yhou really belie that soome one who hatee transexuals will stop hating them becasuse the law now says they are the opposite sex, you mean in the saem way mthat making homosexualtiy legal has stoped himophoic attacks?


No. But I do think the increased acceptance and much better lives that homosexuals are able to lead today compared to, say, 50 years ago comes, at least partly, form government laws like this one that recognise the rights of people to be how they are and live how they want.



slatersteven wrote:
Which would surley be the same kind of commitement requred to prove you really want to be a man/Woman?


Yes, it requires a lot of commitment to get gender re-assignment surgery, and likely even to get a simple ID change.

Also, they already are men and women. They just want the surgery.

slatersteven wrote:
No, but there are things you can do, wanking off, sniffing the seats. Hell even sitting mwith the door open and your cock out.


You think a woman could get away with these things (replacing the cock with relevant genitals) in a woman's toilet and not face serious repercussions, including sexual harassment charges? I think you'll find they definitely wouldn't.


I have had diffuclty finding any cases if womwn being arrested for this. Presumably becasue its not that common. But it is a fact that women do tend to get lighter sentances for this kind of offence. Oh and by the way what about stautory rape, here is a crim that is often treated with far less severity when its a woman who commits the offence?
 
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Alaren wrote:
Hormones can do some remarkable things to a person, sure. As for how "much" it changes--at that point I'm not sure we're even operating in the realm of the quantitative anymore, so I don't know that "how much" is an intelligible inquiry unless you are willing to accept the answer "probably some."


No problem. I'm just muddying the waters.

Quote:
Let me ask you this: do you think we should have sex-segregated prison populations?


We segregate prisoners in more ways than two genders already.
 
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Dolphinandrew wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
What I meant is a female who like women, but traped insode a mans body. Thus I call myslef female whilst retaining all the things (including sexual preferances) that make me male.


There are plenty of homosexual transgendered people. I'm not sure why it would be a particular issue?


I was not aware I made it a partucualr issue, just asked if I would be able to do it.
 
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tscook wrote:
Alaren wrote:
rshipley wrote:
How much do you think this changes when people undergo hormone treatments?

I've seen estimates of people who physically differ from standard male or female at 1 in 100. That is 10s of millions of edge cases before considering how people think about themselves.


Hormones can do some remarkable things to a person, sure. As for how "much" it changes--at that point I'm not sure we're even operating in the realm of the quantitative anymore, so I don't know that "how much" is an intelligible inquiry unless you are willing to accept the answer "probably some."

Let me ask you this: do you think we should have sex-segregated prison populations?


Generally, yes. If you're worried about rape, you should look at "correctional" officers, not prisoners.


Wuld that be becaseu prisons tend to be gender segrigated.
 
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slatersteven wrote:
I have had diffuclty finding any cases if womwn being arrested for this. Presumably becasue its not that common. But it is a fact that women do tend to get lighter sentances for this kind of offence.


Perhaps. But as well as women being less likely to cause such offences, they are also less likely, when they do commit them, to commit them in server ways. So it's not surprising lighter sentences tend to be less common. Of course it may equally be sexism within the justice system.

Context is everything with these cases.

slatersteven wrote:
Oh and by the way what about stautory rape, here is a crim that is often treated with far less severity when its a woman who commits the offence?


So you think it's likely that someone is going to go through this whole process, so that they can get off more lightly when they commit statutory rape? I find that a little hard to believe.
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Dolphinandrew wrote:

So you think it's likely that someone is going to go through this whole process, so that they can get off more lightly when they commit statutory rape? I find that a little hard to believe.


No, it won't work that way. First, government officially recognizes that gender is determined by the brain, and not by what parts one has. Then, after having been accused, a clever defendant uses this as a defense strategy. It wouldn't be a stretch to prove that not having the paperwork done in advance shouldn't remove the guarantee of equal treatment under the law.
 
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