Robert Wilson
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Hi

in a game yesterday ( of an SK2 scenario but this forum gets more traffic)
a lone US squad with a MMG went on a ROF tear, ending with a snakeyes 1,1

obviously doubles cower, and rof was achieved, BUT according to the RB , a unit that cowers is placed under final fire , and if under final fire is ineligible for further ROF.

Is that correct?

Luckily for me he left his 9-2 leader behind, otherwise it would have been a 0 result on the IIFT!


cheers
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Miikka Sohlman
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Do you play Starter Kits with IIFT? (nothing wrong with that, just curious)

Anyways, yes, that's right. ROF is lost.
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Sam H
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I think you're right. If the unit cowers, it looses ROF no matter what the result that caused the cowering.
 
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Robert Wilson
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Hipsu wrote:
Do you play Starter Kits with IIFT? (nothing wrong with that, just curious)

Anyways, yes, that's right. ROF is lost.


Of course, we are Canadian, dont all Canadians use the IIFT ?

I like it because it doesnt handicap weird and odd numbered squads , like 5-4-8s and 3-4-7s .
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Martí Cabré

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These weird squads were designed this way relative to the 447 so they would have different behaviours engaging in ranged fire than in close combat.

Example: 547 and 447 are equal in ranged combat but the former has the upper hand in close combat, thus forcing the player to use historical tactics to maximize this effect.

Using the IIFT you nullify this design-for-effect.
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Miikka Sohlman
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dude163 wrote:
Hipsu wrote:
Do you play Starter Kits with IIFT? (nothing wrong with that, just curious)
Of course, we are Canadian, dont all Canadians use the IIFT ?

High five then! All Finns use the IIFT too (me included). I was in a Finnish ASL tournament some weeks ago and everyone used IIFT. Must have something to do with the latitude...

Don't listen to Marti! arrrhdevil
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Martí Cabré

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This must be related to the daily sun hours.

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Robert Wilson
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marticabre wrote:
These weird squads were designed this way relative to the 447 so they would have different behaviours engaging in ranged fire than in close combat.

Example: 547 and 447 are equal in ranged combat but the former has the upper hand in close combat, thus forcing the player to use historical tactics to maximize this effect.

Using the IIFT you nullify this design-for-effect.


IIFT also is an official variant

plus it helps out things like the german HMG and squads being 4+7 and 11 total which drops to the 8 fp chart ( one of my pet peeves!)
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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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dude163 wrote:
plus it helps out things like the german HMG and squads being 4+7 and 11 total which drops to the 8 fp chart ( one of my pet peeves!)

The German HMG doesn't need the help, peeve or no. Please consider that John Hill knew of these effects when he designed the game...
 
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sdiberar wrote:
dude163 wrote:
plus it helps out things like the german HMG and squads being 4+7 and 11 total which drops to the 8 fp chart ( one of my pet peeves!)

The German HMG doesn't need the help, peeve or no. Please consider that John Hill knew of these effects when he designed the game...


Oh boy... an IFT vs IIFT debate...surprise run for cover!!
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Yeah, if a squad is Final Fired, then any/all SW they are portaging are also final fired.

Why do the Finns use the IIFT? They don't need it. I personally don't care for using the IIFT. It seems more complicated. Plus, I agree, it seems like odd numbered FP units were probably created that way for a reason--the IIFT first came out in the '89 annual, correct me if I am wrong--which was waaay after the original SL came out.

There are many instances where there is no point in firing your LMG, for instance, because it won't get you onto a higher column. I think that is when you just use them for laying firelanes and stuff.
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Rindu wrote:
Yeah, if a squad is Final Fired, then any/all SW they are portaging are also final fired.


All SW, including BAZ for instance?
 
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Robert Wilson
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sdiberar wrote:
dude163 wrote:
plus it helps out things like the german HMG and squads being 4+7 and 11 total which drops to the 8 fp chart ( one of my pet peeves!)

The German HMG doesn't need the help, peeve or no. Please consider that John Hill knew of these effects when he designed the game...


I would agree if this was a Squad Leader Starter Kit , not Advanced Squad Leader Starter Kit
 
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Martí Cabré

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dude163 wrote:
sdiberar wrote:
dude163 wrote:
plus it helps out things like the german HMG and squads being 4+7 and 11 total which drops to the 8 fp chart ( one of my pet peeves!)

The German HMG doesn't need the help, peeve or no. Please consider that John Hill knew of these effects when he designed the game...


I would agree if this was a Squad Leader Starter Kit , not Advanced Squad Leader Starter Kit


Well, the Advanced Squad Leader Starter Kit has no IIFT.
 
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marticabre wrote:
These weird squads were designed this way relative to the 447 so they would have different behaviours engaging in ranged fire than in close combat.

Example: 547 and 447 are equal in ranged combat but the former has the upper hand in close combat, thus forcing the player to use historical tactics to maximize this effect.

Using the IIFT you nullify this design-for-effect.


Did the designers also have the wish for the player to have the omni presence and control for his cardboard troops in a pitched firefight to add or subtract the use of a support weapon based upon if they could achieve the next column up on the IFT too.

I also think it is more complicated and unrealistic to add and subtract SW's and Squads from FG's to hit magic numbers for a limited fire table.
It only came out 4 years after ASL was published, so probably developed some time before that. Perhaps something recognized as needing change after a couple years of playing but introduced as a variant not to piss off a group of people already upset about all the changes from SL...
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David K
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Where could I find this IIFT?
 
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Sam H
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kade wrote:
Where could I find this IIFT?


At the IIFT store.

Seriously, it now comes with the ASL rulebook.
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Damon Baume
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kade wrote:
Where could I find this IIFT?


The RB Chapter dividers or download IIFT pdf
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Robert Wilson
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marticabre wrote:
dude163 wrote:
sdiberar wrote:
dude163 wrote:
plus it helps out things like the german HMG and squads being 4+7 and 11 total which drops to the 8 fp chart ( one of my pet peeves!)

The German HMG doesn't need the help, peeve or no. Please consider that John Hill knew of these effects when he designed the game...


I would agree if this was a Squad Leader Starter Kit , not Advanced Squad Leader Starter Kit


Well, the Advanced Squad Leader Starter Kit has no IIFT.


Mine does
 
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Patrick Ireland
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Gracious,

It is just a game.

The sun will rise in the east irregardless of using the IFT or IIFT.

I mentor/tutor Starter Kit players around the globe and I have them use the IFT because that is what comes in the box.

I don't want to introduce the alternate fire table until the player has a grasp of so many other issues.

If a player decides that he/she would rather use IIFT what should I care.

The object of the exercise is to get more players into the game.

Debating the strengths and weakness of each fire table is time spent not playing ASL or Starter Kit.

In the end they are just cardboard counters and will go back in the box or they are virtual counters and will go into the bit bucket.

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Martí Cabré

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Debating ASL stuff is a healthy exercise for the mind!
Even when there is no definitive answer!

The SK were designed 21 years later than ASL and guess what... they did not use the IIFT.

Now, I use the IIFT in full ASL in all my scenarios featuring marine pararaiders versus black SS. All designed by the same mind!
 
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Robert Wilson
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SS vs Marines, now we are talking
 
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Patrick Ireland
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For those players that would like that specific rule on doubles, cowering,
and Fire Marker placement:

SKRB, "2.2.2 Fire Attacks:"

"Whenever a no-leader directed MMC attack rolls original doubles as the IFT resolution DR, it cowers and is resolved on the next lower column on the IFT and results in the cowering unit being marked with a Prep Fire or Final Fire counter (as appropriate)."
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